Website construction help needed

On Mar 29, 8:08 am, comme....TakeThisOut@probertencyclopaedia.com (Matt Probert)
wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2007 23:13:57 -0700, "Neo" <zingafri....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I knew that html was used for web site design, well guys I know I am completely
> >outdated, I have heard of dreamweaver, frontpage etc but would like to
> >have your opinion on if these are actually required.
>
> Oh the power of advertising.... No they are not required.
>
> Web sites are still HTML. HTML is an electronic publishing markup
> language.

Not heard of Flash then?
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On 29 Mar, 09:41, "DoobieDo" <doo... RemoveThis @do.dah> wrote:

> > Not heard of Flash then?
>
> ah ahhh ... saviour of the universe...

Travis Newbury in Spandex....
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On 29 Mar, 07:13, "Neo" <zingafri....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I am new to web programming but want to do some web site development

> Please suggest me some books, online resources in this regard.

EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG

> I have heard of dreamweaver, frontpage etc

EVERYTHING!

First of all, the web is simple. You can do pretty much everything
with simple skills and simple tools (if they're good skills you worked
on), and you'll get a better result than by spending money. OTOH,
Adobe and M$oft don't make much this way, so they're desperate to have
you believe otherwise. They lie.

I work fairly near the bleeding edge of technology, have a huge budget
for tools, and barely spend a penny. I buy memory (at least 2GB in my
desktop), books and cheap useful software from little guys for $10-$20
because I think they _need_ the money (look where the money for
FireFTP goes!). I certainly do _not_ buy Dreamweevils or XMLSpies. If
you need a big tool, there's an open source one out there for free/
peanuts that does it better (Eclipse, jEdit, Protege, Inkscape, Gimp)

There are web tutorials out there, but I don't know of any good ones.
w3schools is bad and I dislike their passing off as being connected
with the W3C. htmldog gets recommended hereabouts, but I don't know it
myself.

So I recommend books. I _like_ books. I like their tactile nature,
their portability, their lack of power supplies and best of all their
inherent multi-screen nature. O'Reilly's "Head First HTML with CSS &
XHTML" is the best tutorial I know and Lie & Bos' "Cascading Style
Sheets" is a great reference for the future. I don't know any other
good web design books I'd really recommend, and there are vast numbers
that are actually harmful.

Learn some really well-grounded modern HTML / CSS skills for static
pages before you get into dynamic, scripted or database driven sites.
Avoid PHP and JavaScript in particular, until you have a good handle
on the static aspects. Then look for ready-built "web shop" packages
to run the catalogue and shopping basket, because they're just too big
to be worth coding from scratch. I'm sure others will have
recommendations (not really my current feed). If you use such a
catalogue, adding payments is pretty easy these days through one of
the on-line services (PayPal, WorldPay etc.)
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

Google the following: html tutorial



Neo <zingafriend.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Mar 29, 12:08 pm, comme....DeleteThis@probertencyclopaedia.com (Matt Probert)
> wrote: > On 28 Mar 2007 23:13:57 -0700, "Neo" <zingafri....DeleteThis@yahoo.com>
> wrote: > > >I knew that html was used for web site design, well guys I
> know I am completely > >outdated, I have heard of dreamweaver, frontpage
> etc but would like to > >have your opinion on if these are actually
> required. > > Oh the power of advertising.... No they are not required.
> > > Web sites are still HTML. HTML is an electronic publishing markup >
> language. > > Why not look at the source of some exisring web sites? > >
> And visit your library, where you will find lots of books regarding >
> "HTML" and "Web sites" > > Or am I being naive? > > Was this strange post
> simply a vehicle for the one that followed ten > minutes later advertising
> ??? > > Matt > > -- > Documenting the banal to the
> bizarrehttp://www.probertencyclopaedia.com
>
>
> I was also surprised seeing that ad appear just in time after my postin,
> but no, I really need your suggestions on this.
>
> thanks, neo
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

"SpaceGirl" <nothespacegirlspam.TakeThisOut@subhuman.net> wrote in message
news:1175157464.817831.176430@r56g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

>
> Not heard of Flash then?
>

ah ahhh ... saviour of the universe...
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On Mar 29, 9:41 am, "DoobieDo" <doo... RemoveThis @do.dah> wrote:
> "SpaceGirl" <nothespacegirls... RemoveThis @subhuman.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1175157464.817831.176430@r56g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Not heard of Flash then?
>
> ah ahhh ... saviour of the universe...

Um, not heard that one before. *sigh*
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On 28 Mar 2007 23:13:57 -0700, "Neo" <zingafriend.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I knew that html was used for web site design, well guys I know I am completely
>outdated, I have heard of dreamweaver, frontpage etc but would like to
>have your opinion on if these are actually required.

Oh the power of advertising.... No they are not required.

Web sites are still HTML. HTML is an electronic publishing markup
language.

Why not look at the source of some exisring web sites?

And visit your library, where you will find lots of books regarding
"HTML" and "Web sites"

Or am I being naive?

Was this strange post simply a vehicle for the one that followed ten
minutes later advertising ???

Matt


--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On 29 Mar 2007 01:37:44 -0700, "SpaceGirl"
<nothespacegirlspam RemoveThis @subhuman.net> wrote:

>On Mar 29, 8:08 am, comme... RemoveThis @probertencyclopaedia.com (Matt Probert)
>wrote:
>> On 28 Mar 2007 23:13:57 -0700, "Neo" <zingafri... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I knew that html was used for web site design, well guys I know I am completely
>> >outdated, I have heard of dreamweaver, frontpage etc but would like to
>> >have your opinion on if these are actually required.
>>
>> Oh the power of advertising.... No they are not required.
>>
>> Web sites are still HTML. HTML is an electronic publishing markup
>> language.
>
>Not heard of Flash then?
>

<ouch>
I've been hit by friendly fire! You're shooting the wrong person,
Miranda.

I thought Flash provided enhancement to HTML documents, as do
graphical file formats, javascript, and the like.

Matt


--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On Mar 29, 3:54 pm, "Andy Dingley" <ding....TakeThisOut@codesmiths.com> wrote:
> On 29 Mar, 07:13, "Neo" <zingafri....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I am new to web programming but want to do some web site development
> > Please suggest me some books, online resources in this regard.
>
> EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG
>
> > I have heard of dreamweaver, frontpage etc
>
> EVERYTHING!
>
> First of all, the web is simple. You can do pretty much everything
> with simple skills and simple tools (if they're good skills you worked
> on), and you'll get a better result than by spending money. OTOH,
> Adobe and M$oft don't make much this way, so they're desperate to have
> you believe otherwise. They lie.
>
> I work fairly near the bleeding edge of technology, have a huge budget
> for tools, and barely spend a penny. I buy memory (at least 2GB in my
> desktop), books and cheap useful software from little guys for $10-$20
> because I think they _need_ the money (look where the money for
> FireFTP goes!). I certainly do _not_ buy Dreamweevils or XMLSpies. If
> you need a big tool, there's an open source one out there for free/
> peanuts that does it better (Eclipse, jEdit, Protege, Inkscape, Gimp)
>
> There are web tutorials out there, but I don't know of any good ones.
> w3schools is bad and I dislike their passing off as being connected
> with the W3C. htmldog gets recommended hereabouts, but I don't know it
> myself.
>
> So I recommend books. I _like_ books. I like their tactile nature,
> their portability, their lack of power supplies and best of all their
> inherent multi-screen nature. O'Reilly's "Head First HTML with CSS &
> XHTML" is the best tutorial I know and Lie & Bos' "Cascading Style
> Sheets" is a great reference for the future. I don't know any other
> good web design books I'd really recommend, and there are vast numbers
> that are actually harmful.
>
> Learn some really well-grounded modern HTML / CSS skills for static
> pages before you get into dynamic, scripted or database driven sites.
> Avoid PHP and JavaScript in particular, until you have a good handle
> on the static aspects. Then look for ready-built "web shop" packages
> to run the catalogue and shopping basket, because they're just too big
> to be worth coding from scratch. I'm sure others will have
> recommendations (not really my current feed). If you use such a
> catalogue, adding payments is pretty easy these days through one of
> the on-line services (PayPal, WorldPay etc.)

Thanks all of you for your opinions, I am heading to the bookstore.

Neo
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On Mar 29, 2:24 pm, comme... DeleteThis @probertencyclopaedia.com (Matt Probert)
wrote:
> >> Web sites are still HTML. HTML is an electronic publishing markup
> >> language.
>
> >Not heard of Flash then?
>
> <ouch>
> I've been hit by friendly fire! You're shooting the wrong person,
> Miranda.

Awww sorry baby I'm a terrible shot.

> I thought Flash provided enhancement to HTML documents, as do
> graphical file formats, javascript, and the like.
>
> Matt

Welllll... okay, smarty pants answer is - technically you don't need
any HTML, or a *web* browser, to view a Flash "page" (hmmm that
metaphor doesn't really work any more, does it?). The Flash Player
itself is a web browser (although, only for SWF, FLV and XML based
content); It can actually render *some* XHTML itself, after a fashion.
Effectively when you view a Flash movie inside your browser, you are
loading *another* browser inside your browser that contains its own VM
(like Java), and that display graphics...
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On Mar 29, 3:54 pm, "Andy Dingley" <ding... DeleteThis @codesmiths.com> wrote:
> On 29 Mar, 07:13, "Neo" <zingafri... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I am new to web programming but want to do some web site development
> > Please suggest me some books, online resources in this regard.
>
> EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG
>
> > I have heard of dreamweaver, frontpage etc
>
> EVERYTHING!
>
> First of all, the web is simple. You can do pretty much everything
> with simple skills and simple tools (if they're good skills you worked
> on), and you'll get a better result than by spending money. OTOH,
> Adobe and M$oft don't make much this way, so they're desperate to have
> you believe otherwise. They lie.
>
> I work fairly near the bleeding edge of technology, have a huge budget
> for tools, and barely spend a penny. I buy memory (at least 2GB in my
> desktop), books and cheap useful software from little guys for $10-$20
> because I think they _need_ the money (look where the money for
> FireFTP goes!). I certainly do _not_ buy Dreamweevils or XMLSpies. If
> you need a big tool, there's an open source one out there for free/
> peanuts that does it better (Eclipse, jEdit, Protege, Inkscape, Gimp)
>
> There are web tutorials out there, but I don't know of any good ones.
> w3schools is bad and I dislike their passing off as being connected
> with the W3C. htmldog gets recommended hereabouts, but I don't know it
> myself.
>
> So I recommend books. I _like_ books. I like their tactile nature,
> their portability, their lack of power supplies and best of all their
> inherent multi-screen nature. O'Reilly's "Head First HTML with CSS &
> XHTML" is the best tutorial I know and Lie & Bos' "Cascading Style
> Sheets" is a great reference for the future. I don't know any other
> good web design books I'd really recommend, and there are vast numbers
> that are actually harmful.

Ok, I think I am through with most of the Head First HTML with CSS
book . I know I will need some more HTML and CSS thingies apart from
what is in the above book but I can take care of it when required. I
would like to know which language/s is the appropriate choice to
consider for the programming part. I know c++ and some perl but can I
please have your opinions for some simple and widely supported backend
for the web development. No, this is not for a commercial site but I
look for stability and easy to maintain too. I would like to know what
are the advantages of say, Java Vs perl or Java Vs PHP or python for
that matter. Which is the most popular btw among web developers?


Regards,
Neo
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On 2 Apr, 09:45, "Neo" <zingafri... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ok, I think I am through with most of the Head First HTML with CSS
> book . I know I will need some more HTML and CSS thingies apart from
> what is in the above book but I can take care of it when required.

Good attitude. Head First isn't about teaching HTML, it's about
teaching the right mindset to produce _good_ HTML. Once you have that,
and the basics, you're ready for reading the HTML spec straight from
the W3C site. For more detailed CSS (and an ongoing reference book)
read Lie & Bos.


> I would like to know which language/s is the appropriate choice to
> consider for the programming part.

Client-side. Avoid them if at all possible! Then use only JavaScript
(the only game in town) and look hard and quickly as AJAX solutions,
as toolkit and framework-based as possible. Google's toolkit is easy
to use, generally well thought out and enormously productive, but it
does create unneccessarily shitty code that Google ought to be ashamed
of. It's a topic of hot debate as to whether its manifest benefits
outweigh the poor code quality.

Server-side, it's a toss-up between Java, PHP, Python and some M$oft
crud.

Java kicks ass for anything big and complex, but it's heavyweight. The
question of whether the new "lightweight" Java approaches (Groovy,
java 1.6 scripting) change this is a good one.

PHP is an ugly language for ignorant web designers to pretend to be
programmers with and write sites full of exploitable holes. It's
_possible_ to write good PHP, but it's harder than in most languages
(PHP itself positively encourages bad practices). The best thing about
PHP is that hosting is cheap, cheerful and easy to find. The worst
thing about PHP is PHP coders, generally a clueless bunch who can't
tell software engineering from getting "Hello World" to work.

Python is a great language and definitely recommended for any sort of
command-line tools (we all need a bucketful of these from time to
time). It kills Perl dead. OTOH, how to attach Python to the web is
less mainstream (although still work looking at). Python skills also
get you access to the world of Zope and Plone, that's worth having
just for itself.

M$oft have some offerings too. I wouldn't work on these tools any
more, while Lidl still need checkout operators. You _can_ use M$oft,
but why would you?
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed 

On Apr 2, 7:49 pm, "Andy Dingley" <ding....RemoveThis@codesmiths.com> wrote:
> On 2 Apr, 09:45, "Neo" <zingafri....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Ok, I think I am through with most of the Head First HTML with CSS
> > book . I know I will need some more HTML and CSS thingies apart from
> > what is in the above book but I can take care of it when required.
>
> Good attitude. Head First isn't about teaching HTML, it's about
> teaching the right mindset to produce _good_ HTML. Once you have that,
> and the basics, you're ready for reading the HTML spec straight from
> the W3C site. For more detailed CSS (and an ongoing reference book)
> read Lie & Bos.
>
> > I would like to know which language/s is the appropriate choice to
> > consider for the programming part.
>
> Client-side. Avoid them if at all possible! Then use only JavaScript
> (the only game in town) and look hard and quickly as AJAX solutions,
> as toolkit and framework-based as possible. Google's toolkit is easy
> to use, generally well thought out and enormously productive, but it
> does create unneccessarily shitty code that Google ought to be ashamed
> of. It's a topic of hot debate as to whether its manifest benefits
> outweigh the poor code quality.
>
> Server-side, it's a toss-up between Java, PHP, Python and some M$oft
> crud.
>
> Java kicks ass for anything big and complex, but it's heavyweight. The
> question of whether the new "lightweight" Java approaches (Groovy,
> java 1.6 scripting) change this is a good one.
>
> PHP is an ugly language for ignorant web designers to pretend to be
> programmers with and write sites full of exploitable holes. It's
> _possible_ to write good PHP, but it's harder than in most languages
> (PHP itself positively encourages bad practices). The best thing about
> PHP is that hosting is cheap, cheerful and easy to find. The worst
> thing about PHP is PHP coders, generally a clueless bunch who can't
> tell software engineering from getting "Hello World" to work.
>
> Python is a great language and definitely recommended for any sort of
> command-line tools (we all need a bucketful of these from time to
> time). It kills Perl dead. OTOH, how to attach Python to the web is
> less mainstream (although still work looking at). Python skills also
> get you access to the world of Zope and Plone, that's worth having
> just for itself.
>
> M$oft have some offerings too. I wouldn't work on these tools any
> more, while Lidl still need checkout operators. You _can_ use M$oft,
> but why would you?
I have had a web design suggest to me to use ASP / learne ASP instead
of sticking with and learning PHP. Do you think this is jutified?.
I don't mind PHP, but I have found it interesting how there is more
then one way to include one file in another.
It just sems like it's been thrown together in an afternoon.
Would Python be easier to learne?
I kind of agree about ASP though, I don't like the idea of being stuck
with one specific OS.
Out of interest, is Python another CGI based language?
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
 >> Stay informed about: Website construction help needed