Starting Web design

"Scott Bryce" wrote in message

> Scott wrote:
>> Okay, I am really, really new to web design. I do know the basics, like
>> how to make a header, insert pictures and add links, yatta, yatta. So the
>> boss bought some software called Webeasy... This is not
>> going to be our solution.
>>
>> Can anyone give me some advice on choosing a software or software's that
>> would help me re-create our generic webpage?
>
> What do you mean by recreate? If it already exists, there is no reason
> to rebuild it. If there is a reason to rebuild it that isn't obvious,
> can you tell us what that is?
>
> As for software, any good text editor will work. I am an UltraEdit fan.
> Others here are fans of other text editors.
>
>
>> We really do not need to accommodate the entire world. I'm just
>> looking to make it for one customer.
>
> HTML is HTML no matter how many people are going to view the page.
>
>
>> What I need the web site to do is:
>>
>> - basic home page -- login in w/ password (possible register / I'm not
>> sure how that works... cookies?)
>
> Log in with password is not a simple matter for someone starting out.
> This will require some sort of server side scripting.
>
>
>> --- products page (200 items)
>
> I doubt you want to put all 200 items on one page. That will be hard to
> sort through.
>
> With that many items, you may want to use some sort of database driven
> method to generate the page(s). This adds another level of complexity.
> It is another job for server side scripting, which is OK, because you
> need to determine if the user is logged in before displaying the page,
> which will also require server side scripting.
>
>
>> ---- order page
>
> This is definitely not a job for someone starting out. ordering is a
> complex task. Can you use an off the shelf shopping cart system? That
> will make things much easier.
>
>
>> After they choose what they want on the order page, I have it sent to
>> my email. using formmail.
>
> Not if they include payment information! Emailing yourself payment
> information is not secure. You can email yourself the order, but
> transfer payment information some other way.


No payment info is ever used.
Basically the web page is "emailed" to us.
You can view the site here... http://www.glyphicsgraphics.com/cart1.html
The link ORDER FORM is at the top of the page.

I really need to make this product list and order form way more attractive
and more user friendly.

- Scott
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

"Scott" wrote in message

>
> "Scott Bryce" wrote in message
>
>> Scott wrote:
>>> Okay, I am really, really new to web design. I do know the basics, like
>>> how to make a header, insert pictures and add links, yatta, yatta. So
>>> the boss bought some software called Webeasy... This is not
>>> going to be our solution.
>>>
>>> Can anyone give me some advice on choosing a software or software's that
>>> would help me re-create our generic webpage?
>>
>> What do you mean by recreate? If it already exists, there is no reason
>> to rebuild it. If there is a reason to rebuild it that isn't obvious,
>> can you tell us what that is?
>>
>> As for software, any good text editor will work. I am an UltraEdit fan.
>> Others here are fans of other text editors.
>>
>>
>>> We really do not need to accommodate the entire world. I'm just
>>> looking to make it for one customer.
>>
>> HTML is HTML no matter how many people are going to view the page.
>>
>>
>>> What I need the web site to do is:
>>>
>>> - basic home page -- login in w/ password (possible register / I'm not
>>> sure how that works... cookies?)
>>
>> Log in with password is not a simple matter for someone starting out.
>> This will require some sort of server side scripting.
>>
>>
>>> --- products page (200 items)
>>
>> I doubt you want to put all 200 items on one page. That will be hard to
>> sort through.
>>
>> With that many items, you may want to use some sort of database driven
>> method to generate the page(s). This adds another level of complexity.
>> It is another job for server side scripting, which is OK, because you
>> need to determine if the user is logged in before displaying the page,
>> which will also require server side scripting.
>>
>>
>>> ---- order page
>>
>> This is definitely not a job for someone starting out. ordering is a
>> complex task. Can you use an off the shelf shopping cart system? That
>> will make things much easier.
>>
>>
>>> After they choose what they want on the order page, I have it sent to
>>> my email. using formmail.
>>
>> Not if they include payment information! Emailing yourself payment
>> information is not secure. You can email yourself the order, but
>> transfer payment information some other way.
>
>
> No payment info is ever used.
> Basically the web page is "emailed" to us.
> You can view the site here... http://www.glyphicsgraphics.com/cart1.html
> The link ORDER FORM is at the top of the page.
>
> I really need to make this product list and order form way more attractive
> and more user friendly.
>
> - Scott
>

I was think that I should have my boss purchase the Adobe Suite.
I am very familiar with photoshop and illustrator, so I thought maybe their
other products would work in similar fashion.
- Scott
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

"Scott" wrote:

> What I need the web site to do is:
>
> - basic home page
> -- login in w/ password (possible register / I'm not sure how that
> works... cookies?)
> --- products page (200 items)
> ---- order page
>
> After they choose what they want on the order page, I have it sent to
> my email. using formmail.

Hire someone, especially if it's just for one customer.

--
John Bokma http://johnbokma.com/
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

Scott wrote:

> Hi, and happy VD day...

Hi, I'm just going to pop down to the ATM machine to enter my PIN number.

> What I need the web site to do is:
>
> - basic home page
> -- login in w/ password (possible register / I'm not sure how that
> works... cookies?)
> --- products page (200 items)
> ---- order page

While I'd be happy to advise and give pointers for even a beginner to
write a simple dynamic site with registrations, logins and password-
protected areas, writing a secure checkout system is a whole different
ball game.

Either hire someone with at least five years' experience writing similar
systems, or use a third-party checkout service. I'm pretty sure that
Paypal has one; Google too.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 15 days, 22:38.]

Mince & Dumplings
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/10/mince-dumplings/
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

"Toby A Inkster" wrote in message

> Scott wrote:
>
>> Hi, and happy VD day...
>
> Hi, I'm just going to pop down to the ATM machine to enter my PIN number.
>
>> What I need the web site to do is:
>>
>> - basic home page
>> -- login in w/ password (possible register / I'm not sure how that
>> works... cookies?)
>> --- products page (200 items)
>> ---- order page
>
> While I'd be happy to advise and give pointers for even a beginner to
> write a simple dynamic site with registrations, logins and password-
> protected areas, writing a secure checkout system is a whole different
> ball game.
>
> Either hire someone with at least five years' experience writing similar
> systems, or use a third-party checkout service. I'm pretty sure that
> Paypal has one; Google too.
>
> --
> Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
> [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
> [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 15 days, 22:38.]
>
> Mince & Dumplings
> http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/10/mince-dumplings/


We used to take all these orders by FAX.
We want to get away from the fax and have them fill it out on the web.

There is no billing information ever transferred on the site.
We only need them to fill out the form (what they want)
Then have it sent to us, using formmail code. (I already have this much)
Since there is no real security issues of billing info, I just need the
person to fill in the form and send it.
Maybe a form with 200 items and a quantity selector (not sure) I have not
seen many samples yet.

- Scott
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

Scott wrote:
> There is no billing information ever transferred on the site.

That simplifies things a lot.

> We only need them to fill out the form (what they want)

OK. Can you get away with putting all 200 items on one page? What about
maintaining that page? How stable is this list of items? If an item
changes, is tweaking the HTML the best way to update this page? What is
the possibility that as you are developing the site, the specs will
change? (hint: it ALWAYS happens.) Will a spec change add more
complexity to the site (hint: Yes.)

> Then have it sent to us, using formmail code. (I already have this
> much)

A good Formmail script can be found at
http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/scripts.shtml

If you don't understand web security, please don't write one yourself.

> Since there is no real security issues of billing info, I just need
> the person to fill in the form and send it.

But you also said that you need to have someone log into the site. That
adds a level of complexity to this whole thing that you may not be able
to deal with. Password protecting a site is not a beginner's project.

> Maybe a form with 200 items and a quantity selector (not sure) I have
> not seen many samples yet.

....And password protected.

As I look at the form, I see no way to determine who has placed the
order. Is that tied into the login scheme you want? Either way,
determining who placed the order adds a level of complexity.

What method will you use to insure that orders are legit? What prevents
just anyone from filling in the form and submitting it?

If there is a login scheme, how are accounts set up? Where do the user
names and passwords come from? How are they maintained? Do you need to
create this portion of the site as well? What prevents a hacker from
accessing the admin area of the site? If the project really is as simple
as you are describing it, an admin area could be more than half of the
project.
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

"Scott Bryce" wrote in message

> Scott wrote:
>> There is no billing information ever transferred on the site.
>
> That simplifies things a lot.
>
>> We only need them to fill out the form (what they want)
>
> OK. Can you get away with putting all 200 items on one page? What about
> maintaining that page? How stable is this list of items? If an item
> changes, is tweaking the HTML the best way to update this page? What is
> the possibility that as you are developing the site, the specs will
> change? (hint: it ALWAYS happens.) Will a spec change add more
> complexity to the site (hint: Yes.)
>
>> Then have it sent to us, using formmail code. (I already have this
>> much)
>
> A good Formmail script can be found at
> http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/scripts.shtml
>
> If you don't understand web security, please don't write one yourself.
>
>> Since there is no real security issues of billing info, I just need
>> the person to fill in the form and send it.
>
> But you also said that you need to have someone log into the site. That
> adds a level of complexity to this whole thing that you may not be able
> to deal with. Password protecting a site is not a beginner's project.
>
>> Maybe a form with 200 items and a quantity selector (not sure) I have
>> not seen many samples yet.
>
> ...And password protected.
>
> As I look at the form, I see no way to determine who has placed the
> order. Is that tied into the login scheme you want? Either way,
> determining who placed the order adds a level of complexity.
>
> What method will you use to insure that orders are legit? What prevents
> just anyone from filling in the form and submitting it?
>
> If there is a login scheme, how are accounts set up? Where do the user
> names and passwords come from? How are they maintained? Do you need to
> create this portion of the site as well? What prevents a hacker from
> accessing the admin area of the site? If the project really is as simple
> as you are describing it, an admin area could be more than half of the
> project.

Thanks for the link.
I can learn/study a lot from that.
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

"Scott Bryce" wrote in message

> Scott wrote:
>> There is no billing information ever transferred on the site.
>
> That simplifies things a lot.
>
>> We only need them to fill out the form (what they want)
>
> OK. Can you get away with putting all 200 items on one page? What about
> maintaining that page? How stable is this list of items? If an item
> changes, is tweaking the HTML the best way to update this page? What is
> the possibility that as you are developing the site, the specs will
> change? (hint: it ALWAYS happens.) Will a spec change add more
> complexity to the site (hint: Yes.)
>
>> Then have it sent to us, using formmail code. (I already have this
>> much)
>
> A good Formmail script can be found at
> http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/scripts.shtml
>
> If you don't understand web security, please don't write one yourself.
>
>> Since there is no real security issues of billing info, I just need
>> the person to fill in the form and send it.
>
> But you also said that you need to have someone log into the site. That
> adds a level of complexity to this whole thing that you may not be able
> to deal with. Password protecting a site is not a beginner's project.
>
>> Maybe a form with 200 items and a quantity selector (not sure) I have
>> not seen many samples yet.
>
> ...And password protected.
>
> As I look at the form, I see no way to determine who has placed the
> order. Is that tied into the login scheme you want? Either way,
> determining who placed the order adds a level of complexity.
>
> What method will you use to insure that orders are legit? What prevents
> just anyone from filling in the form and submitting it?
>
> If there is a login scheme, how are accounts set up? Where do the user
> names and passwords come from? How are they maintained? Do you need to
> create this portion of the site as well? What prevents a hacker from
> accessing the admin area of the site? If the project really is as simple
> as you are describing it, an admin area could be more than half of the
> project.

Thanks guys... even john, who shaves his legs!
These are great questions I need to address.
However, I am the "chosen one" - failed or accomplished.
Like in the graphics world, I had to start somewhere, and now I will be
starting in the HTML world.
*sigh*
I'll get stuff started, and hopefully you all can give honest thoughts along
the way.
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

Scott wrote:
> Thanks for the link. I can learn/study a lot from that.

But not enough to allow you to do this project.

Can you read Perl?

I can assure you that reading the source of a formmail script will not
teach you how to to a build a password protected site.
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

Scott wrote:
> These are great questions I need to address.

Who is designing this site? I think you need to take these questions to
a larger team and nail down a complete spec. It doesn't look like you
have one now.

> However, I am the "chosen one" - failed or accomplished.

I am not optimistic. The company should have chosen someone who has the
skills to do this project.

> Like in the graphics world, I had to start somewhere, and now I will
> be starting in the HTML world.

And the programming world. And the database design world. And the web
usability world. And the web security world. And the HTTP world. Maybe
the CGI world, depending on what language you will be using.


> I'll get stuff started, and hopefully you all can give honest
> thoughts along the way.

I hope your next employer is more reasonable.

Seriously, step 1 is to sit down with your team and nail down your
specifications. I suspect your team is just you and your manager. OK,
start there. YOU NEED A SPEC! From there you can get a feel for how big
this project really is and determine the skill set necessary to pull
this off.

As you are designing the spec, think about everything that can possibly
go wrong. You will probably need to write more code that deals with
exceptions than code that processes the order.

And understand that someone does not necessarily need to access your
form to get to your script. Input to the server side scripts can come
from anywhere. Your scripts need to understand this and deal with the
potential security issues.
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

Scott wrote:
> These are great questions I need to address.

Now I have more questions.

On the example page for the last three items on the order form it says:
Branch Hours Must Be Specified on Next Page.

What next page? How will your script know whether you need to display a
next page? How are you going to combine the order information with the
branch hours information when the order is sent to you?

This is quite a bit more complex than simply emailing the results of a
form to an email address.

An order will need to be stored in a temporary record in a database
pending capture of the branch hours. The information will then need to
be consolidated and sent to you. Temporary records will need to be
removed from the database from time to time. You may be starting in the
Cron world, along with all the others. And the session management world.

And you need to deal with all the exceptions along the way. What happens
if the session doesn't exist? (You will want to try deleting the cookie
during testing.) What happens if the session exists, but isn't in the
database? (You will want to try deleting the session record during
testing.) What happens if you capture the Branch hours information, but
the order can't be found. (Yes, you will want to place an order, go to
the branch hours page, then delete the pending order record from the
database during testing.) Can someone change an order during the
ordering process? Does that change the additional information that needs
to be captured? How will you keep track of all of it so you know that
you have the information that you need?

So it looks like you have one customer: US Bank. But in reality you have
many customers: any US Bank branch. So when you capture an order, you
need to know which branch sent the order. Billing/shipping information
needs to be on file somewhere. You need to match the order with that
billing/shipping information. However you do it now, you need to be able
to convert your fax system to an on-line system. If this information
needs to be obtained from different sources, then included in the email,
a simple formmail script isn't going to do what you need it to do.

Are you getting an idea what this will involve? Since I don't know your
current system, I don't know half the questions that will need to be
answered. Welcome to the systems design world.
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

Scott wrote:
> These are great questions I need to address.

More problems to address:

NEVER do client side authentication!! It isn't secure.

If you are going to use JavaScript on a website 1) Make sure the site
works with JavaScript disabled. 2) Test it in other browsers besides IE.
I can log in in IE, but not in FireFox.

On your View Products page, the images should be thumbnails, not full
sized images reduced in size by the browser.

You are on a Unix server. Case matters in file names. selection.html and
Selection.html are two different file names. You will have a nightmare
on your hands unless you only use lower case letters in file names. At
some point you will forget what you have and have not capitalized, and
your links will break. You want to fix this now, before the problem gets
too big to fix.

Your pricing page breaks if I change my font size.
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design 

Scott wrote:

> Thanks guys... even john, who shaves his legs!
> These are great questions I need to address.
> However, I am the "chosen one" - failed or accomplished.

It's too bad, actually - a great example of "penny wise, pound foolish".

Really, would you hire a doctor to build a house? Or an architect to do
surgery? To do what you're being asked to do is something that takes a
lot of training and experience.

I understand that he's made the decision, but it's an absolutely
terrible decision. If I were you, I would be working on the resume
writing skills as others have suggested - not necessarily because you'll
get fired, but because I can't see how a company being run like that
could possibly last very long.

> Like in the graphics world, I had to start somewhere, and now I will be
> starting in the HTML world.

There's a first problem: you need more than HTML to do what you want.

If you MUST do this, it's going to take time, and you have a lot to
learn. I would suggest starting with a good HTML tutorial - don't use
Adobe Suite or anything like that - learn to code HTML by hand. It will
help tremendously in the next step.

Second step, start learning PHP. I would recommend "PHP 5 / MySql
Programming for the Absolute Beginner"
http://www.amazon.com/PHP-MySQL-Programming-Absolute-Beginner/dp/1592004946

That should get you up and running with PHP and a little bit of MySQL as
well, which you'll also need to learn.

If you're reasonably bright, that will get you moving enough to get
SOMETHING done.

> *sigh*
> I'll get stuff started, and hopefully you all can give honest thoughts along
> the way.

Hire a professional!
But since it seems you're not given that option:
* Don't use Adobe Suite, and ESPECIALLY don't use FrontPage

* Learn to code HTML by hand

* Pick up a decent text editor - many here use Crimson Editor:
http://www.crimsoneditor.com/

* Don't even bother trying to do DHTML and fancy effects using
JavaScript - you've got enough on your plate as it is.


Good luck!
 >> Stay informed about: Starting Web design