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External


Since: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 1625



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:30 pm
Post subject: Notes for Novices: Don't use
Archived from groups: alt>www>webmaster (more info?)

It is recommended that the font tag <font> is not used (it's no longer
supported HTML and may be ignored by later browsers). Instead use a
CSS style.

For example, say you wish to suggest that all <h4> text be slightly
smaller than the standard text, be displayed in the colour black, with
a standard weight (not bold) and use the typeface 'Times New Roman' or
failing that 'Times' or failing that 'sans-serif' you can declare a
style:


H4

{
font-weight: normal;
font-family: "Times New Roman", "Times", "sans-serif";
color: #000000; font-size: 0.8em
}


For a particular block of text you can define your own styles:

#mystyle
{
font-weight: normal;
font-family: "Times New Roman", "Times", "sans-serif";
color: #000000; font-size: 0.8em
}

And then in the HTML use a <div> thus:

<div id="mystyle">
This text will perhaps (it's up to the browser what it does with
styles) be presented in the style defined as 'mystyle'
</div>


Styles can be defined in the actual HTML pages, or better still in a
separate external text file which can then referenced from within the
<head> </head> section of the HTML page, for example assuming a CSS
style file named 'mystyle.css':

<head>
....
<link rel=stylesheet type="text/css" href="mystyles.css">
....
</head>


These are fully supported CSS operations with NO compatability issues.

Matt Probert

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gary1

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Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 50



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <40015c01.74400656.DeleteThis@news.ntlworld.com>,
comments.DeleteThis@probertencyclopaedia.com says...
 > It is recommended that the font tag <font> is not used (it's no longer
 > supported HTML and may be ignored by later browsers). Instead use a
 > CSS style.

Good idea to post considering recent posts, however, I'm gonna do my
best to pick it apart (in the nicest possible way, of course)

 > For example, say you wish to suggest that all <h4> text be slightly
 > smaller than the standard text, be displayed in the colour black, with
 > a standard weight (not bold) and use the typeface 'Times New Roman' or
 > failing that 'Times' or failing that 'sans-serif' you can declare a
 > style:
 >
 >
 > H4

If trying to conform to XHTML standards, it might be better to define a
style for "h4" rather than "H4".

 > {
 > font-weight: normal;
 > font-family: "Times New Roman", "Times", "sans-serif";
 > color: #000000; font-size: 0.8em
 > }

Older browsers that have limited support for CSS prefer the 'shorthand'
font:, rather than font-xyz:. If color is defined, then background
should also be defined for the purposes of older browser (IE3 me thinks)
background issues, and potential accessibility issues with
foreground/background clashes involving UA defaults and user stylesheets
e.g.:

h4 {
  font: 0.8em "Times New Roman", "Times", "sans-serif";
  background: #FFF;
  color: #000;
}

 >
 > For a particular block of text you can define your own styles:
 >
 > #mystyle
 > {
 > font-weight: normal;
 > font-family: "Times New Roman", "Times", "sans-serif";
 > color: #000000; font-size: 0.8em
 > }

It's recommended that any defined styles (id's or classes) are named
with respect to their use, and not their style, so .leftcolumn is better
than .smallredunderline

 > And then in the HTML use a <div> thus:
 >
 > <div id="mystyle">

Missing <p> tag I presume.

 > This text will perhaps (it's up to the browser what it does with
 > styles) be presented in the style defined as 'mystyle'

Corresponding </p> would also be missing.

 > </div>
 >
 >
 > Styles can be defined in the actual HTML pages, or better still in a
 > separate external text file which can then referenced from within the
 > <head> </head> section of the HTML page, for example assuming a CSS
 > style file named 'mystyle.css':


 > <head>
 > ...
 > <link rel=stylesheet type="text/css" href="mystyles.css">

Missing quotes from the rel attribute, and the media attribute has not
been mentioned. It's not required, but it does allow the author to
suggest seperate styles for display on screen and in a printed format
(amongst others).

 > ...
 > </head>
 >
 >
 > These are fully supported CSS operations with NO compatability issues.

....for the UA's that support CSS (in it's varying degrees) in the first
place.

Gazza<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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user353

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Since: Jan 09, 2004
Posts: 214



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

'Cor Bilmey, it's Gazza and he's saying:

 > Subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use <font> use CSS
 > From: Gazza <gary.TakeThisOut@garyjones.co.uk.invalid>
 > Newsgroups: alt.www.webmaster

GAZZA!!


--
Dale,
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.oxygenkiosk.net" target="_blank">www.oxygenkiosk.net</a>
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gary1

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Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 50



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <MPG.1a6bb2dbd9543a94989818.RemoveThis@News.CIS.DFN.DE>,
rupert.murdoch.RemoveThis@sky.com says...
 > 'Cor Bilmey, it's Gazza and he's saying:
 >
  > > Subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use <font> use CSS
  > > From: Gazza <gary.RemoveThis@garyjones.co.uk.invalid>
  > > Newsgroups: alt.www.webmaster
 >
 > GAZZA!!

Er....?

Not the "Gazra" on your tagboard if that's what you're thinking...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user353

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Since: Jan 09, 2004
Posts: 214



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

'Cor Bilmey, it's Gazza and he's saying:

 > In article <MPG.1a6bb2dbd9543a94989818.DeleteThis@News.CIS.DFN.DE>,
 > rupert.murdoch.DeleteThis@sky.com says...
  > > 'Cor Bilmey, it's Gazza and he's saying:
  > >
   > > > Subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use <font> use CSS
   > > > From: Gazza <gary.DeleteThis@garyjones.co.uk.invalid>
   > > > Newsgroups: alt.www.webmaster
  > >
  > > GAZZA!!
 >
 > Er....?

One of the greatest footballers to play for England.

 > Not the "Gazra" on your tagboard if that's what you're thinking...

No that's my brother Smile


--
Dale,
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.oxygenkiosk.net" target="_blank">www.oxygenkiosk.net</a>
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spamblocked1

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Since: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 3499



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Gazza wrote:
 > In article <40015c01.74400656.TakeThisOut@news.ntlworld.com>,
 > comments.TakeThisOut@probertencyclopaedia.com says...

[defining text appearance with CSS]

  >> ...
  >> These are fully supported CSS operations with NO compatability
  >> issues.
 >
 > ...for the UA's that support CSS (in it's varying degrees) in the
 > first place.

well yes, of course. all others will use their default values anyway and
assuming the UA has not been set to ridiculous values there is no harm done.

--
William Tasso - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://WilliamTasso.com" target="_blank">http://WilliamTasso.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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adrian3

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Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 33



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:30 am
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

A list of CSS-related links can be found here should you wish to
explore CSS further:

http://www.thenetplace.com/css.php

About 350 links including detailed tutorials. I particularly like the
"Bare Bones, No Crap, CSS Text Control Primer" - and not just because
it has a naughty word in the title.

The NetPlace site itself uses a blend of two CSS techniques - CSS
layout and the splitting of layout and markup into two seperate CSS
files, serving only the layout to broken CSS browsers like NS 4.7.

The first technique is demonstrated here:
http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/

While the second is demonstrated here:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slashdot/

For a further demonstration of the real power of CSS try:
http://www.csszengarden.com/


***

Adrian Appleyard

3,000+ links on web site design, usability, accessibility, tools,
books, link checkers, associations, events, web standards...

http://www.theNetPlace.com/
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davidvb3

External


Since: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 272



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:56 am
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Gazza wrote:
  >>And then in the HTML use a <div> thus:
  >>
  >><div id="mystyle">
 >
 >
 > Missing <p> tag I presume.
 >
 >
  >>This text will perhaps (it's up to the browser what it does with
  >>styles) be presented in the style defined as 'mystyle'
 >
 >
 > Corresponding </p> would also be missing.

Not necessary. The <div> is a block level element that can contain text.
You should only use a <p> tag when writing paragraphs. <div> tags should
be used to declare various sections of webpages, but can contain pieces
of text that are not in paragraph form.

  >>These are fully supported CSS operations with NO compatability issues.

To say that there are absolutely no compatibility issues would be
misleading, but is certainly true that CSS is better supported than
equivalent methods in HTML, and with experience, these compatibility
issues (most of the time problems are caused by the inexperience of
users and a lack of common sense).<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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adrian3

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Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 33



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:56 am
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:56:17 +1100, David VB <davidvb RemoveThis @notmydomain.com>
wrote:

 >Gazza wrote:
..
  >> Missing <p> tag I presume.
....
  >> Corresponding </p> would also be missing.
 >
 >Not necessary. The <div> is a block level element that can contain text.
 >You should only use a <p> tag when writing paragraphs. <div> tags should
 >be used to declare various sections of webpages, but can contain pieces
 >of text that are not in paragraph form.

Think about it from an unstyled point of view.

You should have some indication what the text element is. Is it a
heading? Use an 'h' tag. Is it a para? Use the 'p' tag.

You can style out any extra effects of these tags (padding and size)
for browsers that recognise CSS, while other browsers have a fighting
chance of figuring out what that text is and presenting it
accordingly.



***

Adrian Appleyard

3,000+ links on web site design, usability, accessibility, tools,
books, link checkers, associations, events, web standards...

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.theNetPlace.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theNetPlace.com/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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comments

External


Since: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 1625



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:56 am
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:56:17 +1100 David VB <davidvb.TakeThisOut@notmydomain.com>
broke off from drinking a cup of tea at to write:

   >>>These are fully supported CSS operations with NO compatability issues.
 >
 >To say that there are absolutely no compatibility issues would be
 >misleading, but is certainly true that CSS is better supported than
 >equivalent methods in HTML, and with experience, these compatibility
 >issues (most of the time problems are caused by the inexperience of
 >users and a lack of common sense).
 >

What compatability issues with the codes I published?

There are compatability issues with positioning and some other CSS
concepts, but none with these as far as I am aware - by compatability
ussue I mean browsers doing something wrong, rather than just ignoring
the CSS request.

Matt

--
A massive matrix of concise, interlinked encyclopaedia information.
For when you just want to know, quickly and easily.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com" target="_blank">http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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gary1

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Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 50



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:56 am
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <40024915.1129687.DeleteThis@news.ntlworld.com>,
comments.DeleteThis@probertencyclopaedia.com says...
 > On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:56:17 +1100 David VB <davidvb.DeleteThis@notmydomain.com>
 > broke off from drinking a cup of tea at to write:
 >
   > >>>These are fully supported CSS operations with NO compatability issues.
  > >
  > >To say that there are absolutely no compatibility issues would be
  > >misleading, but is certainly true that CSS is better supported than
  > >equivalent methods in HTML, and with experience, these compatibility
  > >issues (most of the time problems are caused by the inexperience of
  > >users and a lack of common sense).
  > >
 >
 > What compatability issues with the codes I published?
 >
 > There are compatability issues with positioning and some other CSS
 > concepts, but none with these as far as I am aware - by compatability
 > ussue I mean browsers doing something wrong, rather than just ignoring
 > the CSS request.

IE3 has issues with backgrounds if the background style is not defined,
but color is. I'd go in to more detail if I could remember exactly what
the problem was, and I wasn't feeling under the weather...

Gazza<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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davidvb3

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Since: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 272



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Matt Probert wrote:
 > On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:56:17 +1100 David VB <davidvb DeleteThis @notmydomain.com>
 > broke off from drinking a cup of tea at to write:
 >
 >
   >>>>These are fully supported CSS operations with NO compatability issues.
  >>
  >>To say that there are absolutely no compatibility issues would be
  >>misleading, but is certainly true that CSS is better supported than
  >>equivalent methods in HTML, and with experience, these compatibility
  >>issues (most of the time problems are caused by the inexperience of
  >>users and a lack of common sense).
  >>
 >
 >
 > What compatability issues with the codes I published?
 >
 > There are compatability issues with positioning and some other CSS
 > concepts, but none with these as far as I am aware - by compatability
 > ussue I mean browsers doing something wrong, rather than just ignoring
 > the CSS request.

None, but, no offense, you have only just touched on css. One simple
compatibility issue I can think of is IE rendering paddings incorrectly
when in quirks mode - you should force it into standards mode through
use of a strict doctype. That is what I mean by inexperience causing
problems: many people would see the mistakes and probably blame Mozilla
or Opera (which handle paddings correctly) for misinterpretting their css.

I was speaking more generally.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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davidvb3

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Since: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 272



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Adrian Appleyard wrote:

 > On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:56:17 +1100, David VB <davidvb RemoveThis @notmydomain.com>
 > wrote:
 >
 >
  >>Gazza wrote:
 >
 > .
 >
   >>>Missing <p> tag I presume.
 >
 > ...
 >
   >>>Corresponding </p> would also be missing.
  >>
  >>Not necessary. The <div> is a block level element that can contain text.
  >>You should only use a <p> tag when writing paragraphs. <div> tags should
  >>be used to declare various sections of webpages, but can contain pieces
  >>of text that are not in paragraph form.
 >
 >
 > Think about it from an unstyled point of view.
 >
 > You should have some indication what the text element is. Is it a
 > heading? Use an 'h' tag. Is it a para? Use the 'p' tag.

Yes but there is text that is neither a heading, nor a paragraph or
list. That is why such a tag is not necessary.

Don't get me wrong, when you are dealing with paragraphs, <p> tags
should *always* be used, and headings should *always* be <h1>, <h2> etc.

Thinking of a poor example off the top of my head, what about a slogan
that you have below your main banner graphic. It is not a paragraph nor
a heading.

 > You can style out any extra effects of these tags (padding and size)
 > for browsers that recognise CSS, while other browsers have a fighting
 > chance of figuring out what that text is and presenting it
 > accordingly.

Yes but if it does not fit one of these tags, you shouldn't use one of
those tags.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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gary1

External


Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 50



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <WytMb.122$A06.7307@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>,
davidvb RemoveThis @notmydomain.com says...
 > Adrian Appleyard wrote:
 >
  > > On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:56:17 +1100, David VB <davidvb RemoveThis @notmydomain.com>
  > > wrote:
  > >
  > >
   > >>Gazza wrote:
  > >
  > > .
  > >
   > >>>Missing <p> tag I presume.
  > >
  > > ...
  > >
   > >>>Corresponding </p> would also be missing.
   > >>
   > >>Not necessary. The <div> is a block level element that can contain text.
   > >>You should only use a <p> tag when writing paragraphs. <div> tags should
   > >>be used to declare various sections of webpages, but can contain pieces
   > >>of text that are not in paragraph form.
  > >
  > >
  > > Think about it from an unstyled point of view.
  > >
  > > You should have some indication what the text element is. Is it a
  > > heading? Use an 'h' tag. Is it a para? Use the 'p' tag.
 >
 > Yes but there is text that is neither a heading, nor a paragraph or
 > list. That is why such a tag is not necessary.
 >
 > Don't get me wrong, when you are dealing with paragraphs, <p> tags
 > should *always* be used, and headings should *always* be <h1>, <h2> etc.
 >
 > Thinking of a poor example off the top of my head, what about a slogan
 > that you have below your main banner graphic. It is not a paragraph nor
 > a heading.

Surely though, that one line would indeed be a new paragraph - CSS can
be used to reduce any apparent line breaks etc.

if not, one possible answer could be <q> :

"Q is intended for short quotations (inline content) that don't require
paragraph breaks" - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#h-" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#h-</a>
9.2.2

In general, <div> is used for grouping other elements, rather than
containing non-marked-up text itself.

Gazza<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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adrian3

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Since: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 33



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Notes for Novices: Don't use [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:16:36 +1100, David VB <davidvb.RemoveThis@notmydomain.com>
wrote:

 >Adrian Appleyard wrote:
 >
  >> Think about it from an unstyled point of view.
  >>
  >> You should have some indication what the text element is. Is it a
  >> heading? Use an 'h' tag. Is it a para? Use the 'p' tag.
 >
 >Yes but there is text that is neither a heading, nor a paragraph or
 >list. That is why such a tag is not necessary.
 >
 >Don't get me wrong, when you are dealing with paragraphs, <p> tags
 >should *always* be used, and headings should *always* be <h1>, <h2> etc.
 >
 >Thinking of a poor example off the top of my head, what about a slogan
 >that you have below your main banner graphic. It is not a paragraph nor
 >a heading.
 >

A tagline in your masthead *is* a paragraph of text, or it is a
sub-heading to your main site identity image or text.

  >> You can style out any extra effects of these tags (padding and size)
  >> for browsers that recognise CSS, while other browsers have a fighting
  >> chance of figuring out what that text is and presenting it
  >> accordingly.
 >
 >Yes but if it does not fit one of these tags, you shouldn't use one of
 >those tags.

Take menus - you can mark them as UL/LI to give an alternative agent
the idea that they are a group of items in a list. Which they are - a
list of navigation options.

EVERYTHING fits a tag. P, h, li, td - whatever. That's the beauty of
it. If you have something you don't think fits any of the tags call
the W3C and have them send around the exterminators.

To get a bit patronising, and mainly as an example for innocent
bystanders, another analogy is a kitchen pantry. You don't just pour
your cereal, rice, sugar, packet soups and so on in little piles on
the shelves and floor.

Sure you can scoop up portions when you want to use them, but what
about someone with poor motor skills? They go hungry trying to dip
their spoon in the suger up the back of the top shelf.

No, you keep each food item in its own container within the enclosing
pantry. Makes the whole experience much easier and less messy when
you bring home more sugar. Also keeps out cockroaches. But that's
another news group altogether. It also dovetails a bit with the joke
about the W3C exteminators but we'll ignore that as pure chance.


***

Adrian Appleyard

3,000+ links on web site design, usability, accessibility, tools,
books, link checkers, associations, events, web standards...

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