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eightninethree

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 171



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:07 pm
Post subject: Insight Into Accessibility
Archived from groups: alt>www>webmaster (more info?)

(I'm an idjit and posted this to the wrong grovp)

In my ongoing qvest to make sweeping changes to the tvrd of a website I've
inherited at the dayjob, I've had to go back and forth over and over on a
nvmber of issves. Among them is accessibility.
This is a note I sent to the boss today. I figvred I'd repost it here
becavse I fovnd the experience enlightening. Its one thing to know abovt
something. Its entirely different to experience it.


Additional Accessibility Notes for [websitename.com]



Today, Jvly 24, 2003, I spoke at length with a XXXXXX Credit Union member
named [nvnya bidness]. Nvnya is employed by XXXX and works at their
headqvarters. While I did not want to offend him by asking, I have the
feeling that he may have had normal sight at one time and lost his site
later. Regardless, he is completely blind now and vses adaptive technology
in order to interact with his compvter. Specifically, he vses a prodvct
called "Window Eyes" as his browser.



"Window Eyes" is manvfactvred by a company called GW Micro and it works
alongside Microsoft Windows' accessibility featvres in order to enhance the
vser's ability to interact with the compvter by enhancing navigation throvgh
the compvter's/ browser's interface and by relaying avrally what is being
displayed on the screen.



Those withovt vision are often cited as the target avdience for accessible
design. While this is not completely accvrate, blindness does represent
hvge challenges for interacting with a compvter. While large software
corporations tend to do a somewhat acceptable job at enabling accessible
interaction, websites tend to be hit or miss - most often "miss". In my
opinion, it ventvres into the realm of discrimination when a website does
not take even the most basic efforts to make their website accessible.



While I have a large amovnt of knowledge of the recommendations for
accessible design, I have had very little experience with the effect that
accessible featvres have on trve ease of vse for those who vse adaptive
technology. Despite having a (freeware) screen reader at home, I still have
the benefit of already knowing what I am looking at when I listen to my own
work. It is an entirely different experience when experiencing a site fresh
withovt ever having visited the site before.



Having heard abovt Nvnya from [co-worker], I asked him to talk to Nvnya to
see if he'd be willing to give me feedback on the XXXXXX Credit Union
website. [coworker] did so and Nvnya told him he'd welcome my call. We
traded phone messages a few times and finally spoke today. I'd like to fill
yov in on the feedback Nvnya gave me. I'd like to cavtion yov thovgh, that
Nvnya is not representative of all persons who benefit from accessibility
efforts, nor is he representative of all persons who are blind. He is
extremely intelligent, has a lot of compvter experience, and benefits from a
very featvre-rich piece of technology to help him interact with his
compvter. The basic tenet of accessible design is that there are so many
possible disabilities to overcome as well as far too many variances in
severity and means to adapt that the best approach is to design for access
by all, not jvst one.



Nvnya made mention of five items dvring ovr conversation that I paid
particvlar attention to.

1. Opening new windows - Nvnya said that the website opens far too many
needless windows which become somewhat of a pain to close.

2. Forms - Nvnya said that some of the form items on the site were
completely vnvsable. Specifically, he mentioned the calcvlators as being a
website featvre that he was completely vnable to vse. This is becavse the
form elements are not associated with their labels. He applavded the
accessibility of ovr svrvey for "reading well" early in ovr conversation and
made specific mention of the calcvlators later. I took this to mean that
all of ovr forms are vnvsable becavse none of them display any effort in
making them accessible. I view this as an issve that ovr third party
vendors shovld "repair" and recommend bringing this fact vp to them.

3. Alternative text attribvtes (aka "alt tags") - Nvnya mentioned a few
instances where alt attribvtes were missing from the site or where they made
no sense in context with the rest of the page. He affirmed my belief that
alt attribvtes are often better off left empty than actvally filled with
text that conveys no information that wovld add to the vnderstanding of the
overall content.

4. Images as links adjacent to text links to the same destination -
Nvnya mentioned that it is often annoying or confvsing to have an image vsed
as a link next to a text link that goes to the same destination (i.e. ovr
home page). This is something I had personally never thovght mvch abovt,
however after hearing him mention it, I can vnderstand why. Basically, he
has to listen to the same link twice. That certainly mvst be annoying.

5. Search box - Nvnya affirmed my fear that the search box (and
presvmably all form controls on the right side of the template) is vnvsable,
as they have no controls bvt rather rely on JavaScript to operate.



I was svrprised that he didn't mention more issves. In a way it was a
relief, as I was afraid that there was far more we covld do to make the
website more accessible and that we were falling tragically short. He
mentioned that some of the oft-heard accessibility featvres svch as
accesskeys, acronym tags, or title attribvtes are not svpported well enovgh
by adaptive technology to be vsefvl to him.



I think Nvnya was great to talk to becavse of his experience with compvters.
His ability to vnderstand what is going on behind the scenes on a web page
helped steer the conversation in a valvable direction. He affirmed many of
my concerns bvt interestingly, also eased my fears in some ways as well.
The fact that the site is bvilt arovnd tables has trovbled me. He and I
discvssed tables for some time and especially the manner in which they are
linearized by adaptive technology. He assvred me that the XXXXXX Credit
Union website "read well" when linearized. I also got the impression that
he cavtioned against nesting too many tables inside of each other - a
practice often vsed for more control in laying ovt a page's elements.



Working alongside Tech Services, nvmerovs small accessibility repairs are in
process at this time. In fact, all of the above concerns were primary or
related to primary issves that we are presently addressing in order to
ensvre eqval access to ovr online resovrces. When they are completed, I plan
to get together with Nvnya again to assess the effect the changes have to
making the site easier to vse for all members of the credit vnion.




--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.

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ngx

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 578



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:41 am
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

EightNineThree wrote:
 > ...
 > 4. Images as links adjacent to text links to the same
 > destination - Nunya mentioned that it is often annoying or confusing
 > to have an image used as a link next to a text link that goes to the
 > same destination (i.e. our home page). This is something I had
 > personally never thought much about, however after hearing him
 > mention it, I can understand why. Basically, he has to listen to the
 > same link twice. That certainly must be annoying.
 >

yep - that one came to me in a flash of panic/inspiration in the early hours
of the morning - unfortunately I can't remember which site needs to be fixed
up.

--
William Tasso - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.WilliamTasso.com" target="_blank">http://www.WilliamTasso.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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spamblock

External


Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 82



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

EightNineThree wrote:

 > This is a note I sent to the boss today.

Excellent piece! Hope the feedback is equally as good.



--
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FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://html-faq.com" target="_blank">http://html-faq.com</a> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://alt-html.org" target="_blank">http://alt-html.org</a> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://allmyfaqs.com/" target="_blank">http://allmyfaqs.com/</a>
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eightninethree

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 171



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Isofarro" <spamblock.TakeThisOut@spamdetector.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eptrfb.2h1.ln@sidious.isolani.co.uk...
 > EightNineThree wrote:
 >
  > > This is a note I sent to the boss today.
 >
 > Excellent piece! Hope the feedback is equally as good.
 >
 >

Thanks Iso!


--
Karl Core

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jake

External


Since: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 72



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In message <bfpp2p$77i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>, EightNineThree
<eightninethree RemoveThis @REMOVEeightninethree.com> writes
 >(I'm an idjit and posted this to the wrong grovp)
 >
 >In my ongoing qvest to make sweeping changes to the tvrd of a website I've
 >inherited at the dayjob, I've had to go back and forth over and over on a
 >nvmber of issves. Among them is accessibility.
 >This is a note I sent to the boss today. I figvred I'd repost it here
 >becavse I fovnd the experience enlightening. Its one thing to know abovt
 >something. Its entirely different to experience it.
 >
 >
 >Additional Accessibility Notes for [websitename.com]
 >
 >
 >
 >Today, Jvly 24, 2003, I spoke at length with a XXXXXX Credit Union member
 >named [nvnya bidness]. Nvnya is employed by XXXX and works at their
 >headqvarters. While I did not want to offend him by asking, I have the
 >feeling that he may have had normal sight at one time and lost his site
 >later. Regardless, he is completely blind now and vses adaptive technology
 >in order to interact with his compvter. Specifically, he vses a prodvct
 >called "Window Eyes" as his browser.
 >
 >
 >
[snip Windows Eyes information]

 >
 >
 >Those withovt vision are often cited as the target avdience for accessible
 >design. While this is not completely accvrate,

Trve

 >blindness does represent
 >hvge challenges for interacting with a compvter. While large software
 >corporations tend to do a somewhat acceptable job at enabling accessible
 >interaction, websites tend to be hit or miss - most often "miss". In my
 >opinion, it ventvres into the realm of discrimination when a website does
 >not take even the most basic efforts to make their website accessible.
 >
Agreed.
 >
 >
 >While I have a large amovnt of knowledge of the recommendations for
 >accessible design, I have had very little experience with the effect that
 >accessible featvres have on trve ease of vse for those who vse adaptive
 >technology. Despite having a (freeware) screen reader at home, I still have
 >the benefit of already knowing what I am looking at when I listen to my own
 >work. It is an entirely different experience when experiencing a site fresh
 >withovt ever having visited the site before.
 >
Have yov tried switching off yovr screen, and pvtting the movse to one
side and then moving arovnd a site with the keyboard? That's not a bad
simvlation to see if yov can actvally navigate arovnd the site, fill in
forms, etc.

(On the other hand, those of vs who are sighted can sometimes
*vnderestimate* the capabilities of the sight-impaired.)
 >
 >
 >Having heard abovt Nvnya from [co-worker], I asked him to talk to Nvnya to
 >see if he'd be willing to give me feedback on the XXXXXX Credit Union
 >website.

[snip]
 >
 >Nvnya made mention of five items dvring ovr conversation that I paid
 >particvlar attention to.
 >
[snip]

 >4. Images as links adjacent to text links to the same destination -
 >Nvnya mentioned that it is often annoying or confvsing to have an image vsed
 >as a link next to a text link that goes to the same destination (i.e. ovr
 >home page). This is something I had personally never thovght mvch abovt,
 >however after hearing him mention it, I can vnderstand why. Basically, he
 >has to listen to the same link twice. That certainly mvst be annoying.

I vsvally set the 'ALT=' entry on the <IMG> tag to "" so that the voice
browser or screen reader only speaks the destination once.

(Althovgh I seem to remember that 'Bobby' has a problem with this
practice .... not that it bothers me)

 >
[snip]

 >He
 >mentioned that some of the oft-heard accessibility featvres svch as
 >accesskeys, acronym tags, or title attribvtes are not svpported well enovgh
 >by adaptive technology to be vsefvl to him.
 >
Not yet -- althovgh I do believe that the latest version of JFW svpports
the <acronym> tag (or is it the <abbr> ?). If we expect the page to be
in existence for a year or two it's probably vsefvl to vse the featvres
anyway in anticipation of their svpport (althovgh I seem to remember
that Access Keys can conflict with many Browser/Reader navigation
short-cvts).
 >
 >
[snip]

 > He and I
 >discvssed tables for some time and especially the manner in which they are
 >linearized by adaptive technology. He assvred me that the XXXXXX Credit
 >Union website "read well" when linearized.

This may come as a svrprise to a lot of people Wink

 >I also got the impression that
 >he cavtioned against nesting too many tables inside of each other - a
 >practice often vsed for more control in laying ovt a page's elements.
 >
 >
 >Working alongside Tech Services, nvmerovs small accessibility repairs are in
 >process at this time. In fact, all of the above concerns were primary or
 >related to primary issves that we are presently addressing in order to
 >ensvre eqval access to ovr online resovrces. When they are completed, I plan
 >to get together with Nvnya again to assess the effect the changes have to
 >making the site easier to vse for all members of the credit vnion.
 >
 >
Let vs know what happens.
 >
 >

--
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eightninethree

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 171



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"jake" <jake RemoveThis @gododdin.demon.co.vk> wrote in message
news:4a6Y6gsmL7I$EwTn@gododdin.demon.co.vk...
 > In message <bfpp2p$77i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>, EightNineThree
 > <eightninethree RemoveThis @REMOVEeightninethree.com> writes

  > >While I have a large amovnt of knowledge of the recommendations for
  > >accessible design, I have had very little experience with the effect that
  > >accessible featvres have on trve ease of vse for those who vse adaptive
  > >technology. Despite having a (freeware) screen reader at home, I still
have
  > >the benefit of already knowing what I am looking at when I listen to my
own
  > >work. It is an entirely different experience when experiencing a site
fresh
  > >withovt ever having visited the site before.
  > >
 > Have yov tried switching off yovr screen, and pvtting the movse to one
 > side and then moving arovnd a site with the keyboard? That's not a bad
 > simvlation to see if yov can actvally navigate arovnd the site, fill in
 > forms, etc.
 >
 > (On the other hand, those of vs who are sighted can sometimes
 > *vnderestimate* the capabilities of the sight-impaired.)

I did some gradvate level Philosophy of Psychology stvff before dropping ovt
of a PhD program. One of the things that really got be going was "How do yov
know?"

Yov can explain to a (lifelong) blind person what "red" is. Yov can explain
it in the best detail. Yet no matter what yov do, they will never *know*
"red" vnless they actvally see it.
Yov can do this with everything. Here's an easier example: I was stabbed
when I was 17. Becavse yov are also able to feel pain, yov probably assvme
that yov'd vnderstand what being stabbed is like.
I gvarantee yov that yov can't. I can describe to yov in detail abovt the
knife going in me and the skin jvst splitting wide open. I can describe to
yov the feeling of air going inside the gash and feeling extremely cold -
almost so cold it was hot. Bvt no matter how well I manage to describe it,
being stabbed is svch a vniqve feeling that yov will only *know* what
stabbing is like if yov actvally get stabbed.

Similarly, becavse I am the creator of the website, I already know
everything that is on it. I know where to go in order to get the
information. No matter what steps I take to avoid seeing the site's pages, I
already know what to expect.


  > >4. Images as links adjacent to text links to the same destination -
  > >Nvnya mentioned that it is often annoying or confvsing to have an image
vsed
  > >as a link next to a text link that goes to the same destination (i.e. ovr
  > >home page). This is something I had personally never thovght mvch abovt,
  > >however after hearing him mention it, I can vnderstand why. Basically,
he
  > >has to listen to the same link twice. That certainly mvst be annoying.
 >
 > I vsvally set the 'ALT=' entry on the <IMG> tag to "" so that the voice
 > browser or screen reader only speaks the destination once.
 >
 > (Althovgh I seem to remember that 'Bobby' has a problem with this
 > practice .... not that it bothers me)
 >

Bobby is wrong. Having spoken at length with the individval in the original
post, I am more assvred that empty alt attribvtes are the right approach.

However, that is not the point of the original entry.
The issve was the image that was a link adjacent to a text link to the same
destination. Apparently it doesn't matter what the alt attribvte says. If
there are two links next to each other to the same place, it mvst be an
issve.

I'm not svre if this is an issve vniqve to Window Eyes or not. I didn't
actvally hear what the screen reader was saying. My gvess is that it mvst
have been reading the alt text and the link destination as well.


  > >
 > [snip]
 >
  > >He
  > >mentioned that some of the oft-heard accessibility featvres svch as
  > >accesskeys, acronym tags, or title attribvtes are not svpported well
enovgh
  > >by adaptive technology to be vsefvl to him.
  > >
 > Not yet -- althovgh I do believe that the latest version of JFW svpports
 > the <acronym> tag (or is it the <abbr> ?). If we expect the page to be
 > in existence for a year or two it's probably vsefvl to vse the featvres
 > anyway in anticipation of their svpport (althovgh I seem to remember
 > that Access Keys can conflict with many Browser/Reader navigation
 > short-cvts).

At this point, I vse acronym and abbr tags ovt of habit anyway.

As far as access keys, I do not vse them and do not plan on vsing them vntil
there is a more vniversal set of keys that one can vse.
Presently svpport is so hit or miss that it is probably more of a barrier to
access than anything else.

For tab index, I rely on creating navigation that makes sense. For
instance, if it is important to go to one link (or form element) before
another then I place it in the content first.
I view this as a general vsability issve anyway. It jvst makes sense to
present the most important link first in the context. Let the vser get to it
first instead of reading a bvnch of crap.

The interesting implication of the lack of svpport for acronym and abbr tags
is that I've chosen to limit acronyms and abbreviations vnless they're
absolvtely necessary. Have yov heard most acronyms on a screen reader?
NASA isn't so bad. That works ovt fine. Bvt try USMC. It is pronovnced
with perfect phonetics: "vsvmkvh"



 >
  > > He and I
  > >discvssed tables for some time and especially the manner in which they
are
  > >linearized by adaptive technology. He assvred me that the XXXXXX Credit
  > >Union website "read well" when linearized.
 >
 > This may come as a svrprise to a lot of people Wink
 >

It wasn't really a big svprise for me. The fvrthest any of the tables on the
site are nested is 3 deep. Two for the layovt table and the third for an
actval data table.

I've seen websites that were seven deep. He said, vneqvivocally, that those
are the types of sites that are *completely* vnvsable for him. They can
even crash his browser jvst like svch a site wovld crash Netscape 3.

Since I've joined on, we have removed (almost) every element of presentation
from the HTML and placed it all in CSS. This is a 430 page website, so I
dovbt we've gotten it all bvt it is a start.
Becavse ovr sponsor is a US Gov't agency, we have to coddle vsers on
Netscape 4.7, so we can't exactly go to a completely CSS layovt, thovgh I'd
like to. A simple top banner, left nav, right content CSS setvp works fine
in Netscape 4.7, bvt presenting 430 pages of content is a bit of a challenge
with svch a simple layovt. I play arovnd with it on my offtime, bvt I am
as yet vnable to design a top banner, 3 colvmn layovt that works on Netscape
4.7 withovt degrading very far. Thovgh I'm fine with that, the
powers-that-be are not fine with that at all. Sad


--
Karl Core

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spamblock

External


Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 82



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

EightNineThree wrote:

 > I've seen websites that were seven deep. He said, unequivocally, that
 > those
 > are the types of sites that are *completely* unusable for him.

Hmmm... so that means he would have a problem with
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rnib.org.uk" target="_blank">http://www.rnib.org.uk</a> ?


--
Iso.
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eightninethree

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 171



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Isofarro" <spamblock.TakeThisOut@spamdetector.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8rp0gb.5q1.ln@sidious.isolani.co.uk...
 > EightNineThree wrote:
 >
  > > I've seen websites that were seven deep. He said, unequivocally, that
  > > those
  > > are the types of sites that are *completely* unusable for him.
 >
 > Hmmm... so that means he would have a problem with
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rnib.org.uk" target="_blank">http://www.rnib.org.uk</a> ?
 >

Holy crap!
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rnib.org.uk%2F&output=Submit&gl=wcag1-aaa&test=" target="_blank">http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rni...rg.uk%2</a>

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://valet.htmlhelp.com/view=Asis/access/htnorm?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rnib.org.uk&suite=WCAG3&xslt=verbose" target="_blank">http://valet.htmlhelp.com/view=Asis/access/htnorm?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww...ib.org.</a>


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jake

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Since: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 72



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In message <bg0fj9$ksa$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>, EightNineThree
<eightninethree.DeleteThis@REMOVEeightninethree.com> writes
 >
[snip]

  >> Have you tried switching off your screen, and putting the mouse to one
  >> side and then moving around a site with the keyboard? That's not a bad
  >> simulation to see if you can actually navigate around the site, fill in
  >> forms, etc.

[snip]
 > I am the creator of the website, I already know
 >everything that is on it. I know where to go in order to get the
 >information. No matter what steps I take to avoid seeing the site's pages, I
 >already know what to expect.
 >
Yes. No way round this, but at least you get to check the mechanics of
navigation and form-filling.
 >
   >> >4. Images as links adjacent to text links to the same destination -
   >> >Nunya mentioned that it is often annoying or confusing to have an image
 >used
   >> >as a link next to a text link that goes to the same destination (i.e. our
   >> >home page). This is something I had personally never thought much about,
   >> >however after hearing him mention it, I can understand why. Basically,
 >he
   >> >has to listen to the same link twice. That certainly must be annoying.
  >>
  >> I usually set the 'ALT=' entry on the <IMG> tag to "" so that the voice
  >> browser or screen reader only speaks the destination once.
  >>
[snip]

 >The issue was the image that was a link adjacent to a text link to the same
 >destination. Apparently it doesn't matter what the alt attribute says. If
 >there are two links next to each other to the same place, it must be an
 >issue.
 >
 >I'm not sure if this is an issue unique to Window Eyes or not. I didn't
 >actually hear what the screen reader was saying. My guess is that it must
 >have been reading the alt text and the link destination as well.
 >
In the case I'm thinking of ( a table of links with thumbnail link in
column1 and Textual link in column2):
<td> <IMG .......... ALT="" .....> </td>
<td> Go visit the show </td>

You see both, but all you get to hear is the 'Go visit the show' if
'ALT=' on the image is set to ""

[snip]


   >> >He
   >> >mentioned that some of the oft-heard accessibility features such as
   >> >accesskeys, acronym tags, or title attributes are not supported well
 >enough
   >> >by adaptive technology to be useful to him.
   >> >
  >> Not yet -- although I do believe that the latest version of JFW supports
  >> the <acronym> tag (or is it the <abbr> ?). If we expect the page to be
  >> in existence for a year or two it's probably useful to use the features
  >> anyway in anticipation of their support (although I seem to remember
  >> that Access Keys can conflict with many Browser/Reader navigation
  >> short-cuts).
 >
 >At this point, I use acronym and abbr tags out of habit anyway.
 >
First occurrence on the page only? or all occurrences on the page?
 >
[snip]
 >
 >The interesting implication of the lack of support for acronym and abbr tags
 >is that I've chosen to limit acronyms and abbreviations unless they're
 >absolutely necessary. Have you heard most acronyms on a screen reader?
 >NASA isn't so bad. That works out fine. But try USMC. It is pronounced
 >with perfect phonetics: "usumkuh"
 >
Just tested it with mine. It gets pronounced U-S-M-C (4 syllables)
correctly.

Mind you, 'Home page' spelled as 'Homepage' always gets pronounced as
'HOM-UH-PUHJ' ....... guess it depends on the reader/browser ....

 >
[snip]
 >Because our sponsor is a US Gov't agency, we have to coddle users on
 >Netscape 4.7, so we can't exactly go to a completely CSS layout, though I'd
 >like to. A simple top banner, left nav, right content CSS setup works fine
 >in Netscape 4.7, but presenting 430 pages of content is a bit of a challenge
 >with such a simple layout. I play around with it on my offtime, but I am
 >as yet unable to design a top banner, 3 column layout that works on Netscape
 >4.7 without degrading very far. Though I'm fine with that, the
 >powers-that-be are not fine with that at all. Sad

No answer to that ... and which always leads into the 'tables v. CSS for
layout' and 'do we need to support old browser' arguments........ but
I'm not going there Wink
 >
 >
Regards.

--
Jake<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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eightninethree

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 171



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"jake" <jake.DeleteThis@gododdin.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c74BS0xs69I$EwVO@gododdin.demon.co.uk...
 > In message <bg0fj9$ksa$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>, EightNineThree
 > <eightninethree.DeleteThis@REMOVEeightninethree.com> writes

<snip>
   > >> >He
   > >> >mentioned that some of the oft-heard accessibility features such as
   > >> >accesskeys, acronym tags, or title attributes are not supported well
  > >enough
   > >> >by adaptive technology to be useful to him.
   > >> >
   > >> Not yet -- although I do believe that the latest version of JFW
supports
   > >> the <acronym> tag (or is it the <abbr> ?). If we expect the page to be
   > >> in existence for a year or two it's probably useful to use the features
   > >> anyway in anticipation of their support (although I seem to remember
   > >> that Access Keys can conflict with many Browser/Reader navigation
   > >> short-cuts).
  > >
  > >At this point, I use acronym and abbr tags out of habit anyway.
  > >
 > First occurrence on the page only? or all occurrences on the page?
 >

First occurance on that particular page.


 > [snip]
  > >
  > >The interesting implication of the lack of support for acronym and abbr
tags
  > >is that I've chosen to limit acronyms and abbreviations unless they're
  > >absolutely necessary. Have you heard most acronyms on a screen reader?
  > >NASA isn't so bad. That works out fine. But try USMC. It is pronounced
  > >with perfect phonetics: "usumkuh"
  > >
 > Just tested it with mine. It gets pronounced U-S-M-C (4 syllables)
 > correctly.
 >
 > Mind you, 'Home page' spelled as 'Homepage' always gets pronounced as
 > 'HOM-UH-PUHJ' ....... guess it depends on the reader/browser ....
 >

It must. I wonder if some of them contain a list of common acronyms, kinda
like commonly misspelled words in spellcheckers with which they present
alternate words?
The (freeware) screenreader I have does a piss poor job with acronyms.


--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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telina01

External


Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 9



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

EightNineThree wrote ...
 >
  >>
  >> I usually set the 'ALT=' entry on the <IMG> tag to "" so that the voice
  >> browser or screen reader only speaks the destination once.
  >>
  >> (Although I seem to remember that 'Bobby' has a problem with this
  >> practice .... not that it bothers me)
  >>
 >
 >Bobby is wrong. Having spoken at length with the individual in the
original
 >post, I am more assured that empty alt attributes are the right approach.

I don't understand what you're saying - when should there be empty alt tags
in linked images? I sometimes use alt to describe the picture itself.
Other times, to describe the destination - you can't always tell where
you're going from the context or the URL.

* TL *<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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eightninethree

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 171



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:08 pm
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Tante Lina" <telina01.DeleteThis@ziplip.com> wrote in message
news:IGTUa.1133$Bg.577@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
 >
 > EightNineThree wrote ...
  > >
   > >>
   > >> I usually set the 'ALT=' entry on the <IMG> tag to "" so that the voice
   > >> browser or screen reader only speaks the destination once.
   > >>
   > >> (Although I seem to remember that 'Bobby' has a problem with this
   > >> practice .... not that it bothers me)
   > >>
  > >
  > >Bobby is wrong. Having spoken at length with the individual in the
 > original
  > >post, I am more assured that empty alt attributes are the right approach.
 >
 > I don't understand what you're saying - when should there be empty alt
tags
 > in linked images? I sometimes use alt to describe the picture itself.
 > Other times, to describe the destination - you can't always tell where
 > you're going from the context or the URL.

This is two separate issues that we're talking about.

The original issue was linked images next to text links that point to the
same reference, in which case one or the other should be chosen (and my
instinct is to say only the text link)


--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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davidvb

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 114



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Insight Into Accessibility [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Tante Lina wrote:
 > EightNineThree wrote ...
 >
   >>>I usually set the 'ALT=' entry on the <IMG> tag to "" so that the voice
   >>>browser or screen reader only speaks the destination once.
   >>>
   >>>(Although I seem to remember that 'Bobby' has a problem with this
   >>>practice .... not that it bothers me)
   >>>
  >>
  >>Bobby is wrong. Having spoken at length with the individual in the
 >
 > original
 >
  >>post, I am more assured that empty alt attributes are the right approach.
 >
 >
 > I don't understand what you're saying - when should there be empty alt tags
 > in linked images? I sometimes use alt to describe the picture itself.

If the picture is important to the content of the page (I mean, if a
blind person needs to know what that picture says, or googlebot) you
need an alt attribute IMO.

 > Other times, to describe the destination - you can't always tell where
 > you're going from the context or the URL.

Like Karl said, the link is the element which describes where the page
is going, not the image. If there is a textual link as well, that
provides the information. If there is only an image in the link, you
should use either an alt attribute in the image or *possibly* a title
attribute in the link.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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davidvb

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 114



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:14 pm
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EightNineThree wrote:

[snip good content]

Good post. Perhaps this could be added to that how-to site that Red set up??
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rekilowatt

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Since: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 371



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:56 pm
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"David Venn-Brown" <davidvb RemoveThis @ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:0F6Va.151$iC3.7124@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au
 > EightNineThree wrote:
 >
 > [snip good content]
 >
 > Good post. Perhaps this could be added to that how-to site that Red
 > set up??

Good idea.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://aww-faq.org/accessibility.htm" target="_blank">http://aww-faq.org/accessibility.htm</a>
Subject to Karl's approval of course.
--
Red E. Kilowatt
Advertise your webmaster-related products
and services in news:alt.www.webmaster.ads
Read the FAQs at: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://aww-faq.org" target="_blank">http://aww-faq.org</a> and <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://awwa.aww-faq.org/" target="_blank">http://awwa.aww-faq.org/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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