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Roy Schestowitz

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Since: Apr 15, 2005
Posts: 74



(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:55 am
Post subject: How to Improve this Newsgroup
Archived from groups: alt>www>webmaster (more info?)

What I describe in this message is my honest opinion, which you may respect
at some level or simply be annoyed by. Either way, I am fairly certain that
a few (a minority at least) will nod and at the same time consider it to be
heresy.

I like alt.www.webmaster. There are some very knowledgeable and funny people
that partake in discussions. Nonethess, there are also a few deterrents.

The newsgroups often appears to be chatroom for boys and girls -- or shall I
say -- boys /and/ girls. It quickly slides into non-technical issues and
dialogues that are hard to follow. To survive in this groups without
killing time, one must hit ignore on very many threads. Moreover, I sensed
that people in this group give short answers, which could otherwise be more
helpful.

Lastly and perhaps not worth mentioning is the recent vandalism by the
Google Groups demonstrator. It definitely did not help. Had that person
been ignored rather than provoked, perhaps, just perhaps, he would have
vanished more quickly. At present, it is hard for me to take the group
seriously and I sometimes don't even skimp the subject lines. If I get
'entangled' in a thread, it may easily carry on for a week. Even a trivial
question about domain registration can find its odd path into a discussion
about fruit and vegetables.

Just my 50 cents guys... I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Roy

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spamblocked1

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Since: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 3499



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:55 am
Post subject: Re: How to Improve this Newsgroup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster
From the safety of the schestowitz.com / MCC / Manchester University
cafeteria
Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups DeleteThis @schestowitz.com> said:

> What I describe in this message is my honest opinion, which you may
> respect
> at some level or simply be annoyed by. Either way, I am fairly certain
> that
> a few (a minority at least) will nod and at the same time consider it to
> be
> heresy.

Whilst simultaneously noting that posts of this nature are usually clearly
marked as OT: perhaps. SCNR

> I like alt.www.webmaster. There are some very knowledgeable and funny
> people
> that partake in discussions. Nonethess, there are also a few deterrents.

All life is here.

> The newsgroups often appears to be chatroom for boys and girls -- or
> shall I
> say -- boys /and/ girls.

There's no need to discriminate agiant those that don't fall into either
category.

> It quickly slides into non-technical issues and
> dialogues that are hard to follow.

It does - sometimes.

> To survive in this groups without
> killing time, one must hit ignore on very many threads.

Does your news reader have an 'ignore thread' option? or some other
filtering mechanism that would provide the functionality. When I used O/E
as a news-reader I found that to be an extremely useful (and trivial to
implement) function.

> Moreover, I sensed
> that people in this group give short answers, which could otherwise be
> more
> helpful.

Aha - now you know how to alter that don't you? there is only one way.
Lead by example.

> Lastly and perhaps not worth mentioning is the recent vandalism by the
> Google Groups demonstrator. It definitely did not help. Had that person
> been ignored rather than provoked, perhaps, just perhaps, he would have
> vanished more quickly.

The gb-goog-fan-boy: has she gone?

> At present, it is hard for me to take the group
> seriously

The 'group' is made up of individuals. Yes indeed, groups do have a
personality and general consensus will usually moderate the behaviour of
individuals in the long run. However, when in Rome, remember not to spit
on the carpet.

> and I sometimes don't even skimp the subject lines. If I get
> 'entangled' in a thread, it may easily carry on for a week.

Yes it may. Don't you hate it in those groups where the replies are terse
'look at this faq item'?

Usenet is a discussion forum - it is good (IMO) that subjects drift. It
makes for a more rounded kb.

> Even a trivial
> question about domain registration can find its odd path into a
> discussion
> about fruit and vegetables.

not forgetting the techniques employed to actually prepare them for
consumption.

> Just my 50 cents guys... I didn't mean to offend anyone.

ahh but this is usenet and it is inevitable that someone will find their
sensibilities bruised by your salvo.

In any event, the very existence of this thread is proof positive (should
it be needed) that folk do indeed care about 'their' groups on usenet -
long may that be so.

--
William Tasso

drwxr-xr-x

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Roy Schestowitz

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Since: Apr 15, 2005
Posts: 74



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:55 am
Post subject: Re: How to Improve this Newsgroup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

__/ [Dylan Parry] on Friday 02 September 2005 12:52 \__

> Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Roy Schestowitz scraped:
>
>> The newsgroups often appears to be chatroom for boys and girls -- or
>> shall I say -- boys /and/ girls. It quickly slides into non-technical
>> issues and dialogues that are hard to follow.
>
> IIRC, the original description of this group was something along the
> lines of "to discuss the various issues that affect Webmasters" which is
> particularly vague. IMHO it is fair to say that anything goes as long as
> it's marked OT.

I found that OT threads tend to involve a small group of regular particpants
while the real questions, which are are on-topic, get triggerred by
hit-and-run posters. This characterises many groups, but no all.

In some groups, subscribers would raise any minute problem that they came
across and then work cohesively to make one another feel truly supported --
that is -- backed by a circle of gurus. There are some mailing lists which
are characterised by these dispositions, yet not any Web-related newsgroup
I am aware of.

Roy
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jstucklex

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Since: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 1507



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:03 am
Post subject: Re: How to Improve this Newsgroup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hi, Roy,

Roy Schestowitz wrote:
> What I describe in this message is my honest opinion, which you may respect
> at some level or simply be annoyed by. Either way, I am fairly certain that
> a few (a minority at least) will nod and at the same time consider it to be
> heresy.
>

Probably.

> I like alt.www.webmaster. There are some very knowledgeable and funny people
> that partake in discussions. Nonethess, there are also a few deterrents.
>

Yep. Just like in real life.

> The newsgroups often appears to be chatroom for boys and girls -- or shall I
> say -- boys /and/ girls. It quickly slides into non-technical issues and
> dialogues that are hard to follow. To survive in this groups without
> killing time, one must hit ignore on very many threads. Moreover, I sensed
> that people in this group give short answers, which could otherwise be more
> helpful.
>

Yep. Gee, the same thing happens in real life, also - get started on a
technical topic and end up talking about women. Interesting how things like
that go.

> Lastly and perhaps not worth mentioning is the recent vandalism by the
> Google Groups demonstrator. It definitely did not help. Had that person
> been ignored rather than provoked, perhaps, just perhaps, he would have
> vanished more quickly. At present, it is hard for me to take the group
> seriously and I sometimes don't even skimp the subject lines. If I get
> 'entangled' in a thread, it may easily carry on for a week. Even a trivial
> question about domain registration can find its odd path into a discussion
> about fruit and vegetables.
>

Who cares about him. I plonked him after about two days. Never saw anything
after that except for a few responses.

> Just my 50 cents guys... I didn't mean to offend anyone.
>
> Roy

Roy, since you've been watching for a while, you know this is a group where web
masters can go not only for technical help, but to share their victories and
frustrations. No, not everything is on target. And sometimes we get idiots in
here.

But hey - that's the way the internet (and life) runs. If you want a newsgroup
with only technical information, you can always get a moderated newsgroup
running. Then you have no off-topic posts. You have no demonstrators (other
than those who occasionally are able to bypass the moderation).

I think part of what makes a.w.w. interesting is the off-topic posts. It allows
people to get away from the technical issues, brag about their latest
child's/town's/favorite team's achievements, blow off steam, and more. And you
can learn a lot more about what it's like to live in other parts of the world
than you ever will on CNN or from a book. For instance (not to pick on our U.K.
friends), even though I've never been to the U.K. (unless you count a plane
change at Heathrow), I feel I know a lot more than most Americans about living
there because of all this newsgroup.

And yes, sometimes we do get carried away. And sometimes the discussion does
get a little hot. But hey - when you're passionate about something, it happens!
But I personally have great respect for the regulars here, including their
opinions and knowledge, even if they do disagree with me.

But it's interesting - I monitor two newsgroups which are moderated. One got 18
posts last month (five by the moderators). The other got 28 posts (none from
the moderators. And these are "lightly moderated". They are also highly boring.

Take away the "off topic" posts and people will quickly start to drift away.
And this would be a *really boring* place.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex.DeleteThis@attglobal.net
==================
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PHPGB

External


Since: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 23



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:55 am
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Roy Schestowitz

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Since: Apr 15, 2005
Posts: 74



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:55 am
Post subject: Re: How to Improve this Newsgroup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

__/ [Dylan Parry] on Friday 02 September 2005 13:47 \__

> Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Roy Schestowitz scraped:
>
>> In some groups, subscribers would raise any minute problem that they came
>> across and then work cohesively to make one another feel truly supported
>
> That would be CIWAH. Down the corridor, turn left and it's the third
> door on the right. Not that I would say they make newbies particularly
> welcome Wink

That one is pretty dormant if not dead. The topics that still come up in
that NG appear to be more like hiccups than they appear like queries,
opinions or requests for support. Honestly, AWW is still far more lively
and interesting, but it's difficult to set aside the noise.

Roy
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Roy Schestowitz

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Since: Apr 15, 2005
Posts: 74



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:55 am
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__/ [Els] on Friday 02 September 2005 13:58 \__

> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
>> In some groups, subscribers would raise any minute problem that they came
>> across and then work cohesively to make one another feel truly supported
>
> Funny thing maybe, but I feel this group often does exactly that.

It sure does that, but often on a personal level rather than a professional
level

OR

phrased differently, or analysed differently, support on a professional
level gets obscured by a far larger amount of personal-level support that
typically dominates. I have nothing against discussions covering personal
lives, but the relevance to others (the scope) tends to reach fewer people.
Newsgroups are not well-engineered to handle dialogues.

Roy
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spamblocked1

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Since: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 3499



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:55 am
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Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster
From the safety of the GreyWyvern.com cafeteria
GreyWyvern <spam RemoveThis @greywyvern.com> said:

> And lo, Roy Schestowitz didst speak in alt.www.webmaster:
>
>> Honestly, AWW is still far more lively
>> and interesting, but it's difficult to set aside the noise.
>
> I rocked the boat about this a number of months ago.

tis a rite-of-passage moment Smile

> IMHO it's gotten much better since then.

ebbs and flows

> Then again, "better" can have many meanings.

indeed - the odd heartbeat bouncing around a load-balanced cluster is
quite different from the full netbios
hello-who-are-you-what-do-you-do-conversation.

--
William Tasso

drwxr-xr-x
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PHPGB

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Since: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 23



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:55 am
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spamblocked1

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Since: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 3499



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:55 am
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Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster
From the safety of the NTL cafeteria
Matt Probert <comments.RemoveThis@probertencyclopaedia.com> said:

> ...
> There are quite a few regulars who have been bullied out of here.

and there are those that would have been ostraci[s|z]ed from (or run-out
of) any community of civilised folk whether virtual/online or IRL.

A happy medium[1] is the best one can hope for. There is no regulated
police force or approved justice system on usenet - heck, there isn't even
a democracy (though many would argue that's a good thing).

[1] Unfortunately she couldn't join us today as something unexpected came
up.
--
William Tasso

drwxr-xr-x
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spam19

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Since: May 08, 2004
Posts: 953



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:55 am
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And lo, PHPGB didst speak in alt.www.webmaster:

> As you know matt i've never been one to say things for the sole purpose
> of gaining friends or influence - but would you say it was any worse
> than most other web authoring groups .
>
> - only say negative stuff about IE
>
> - if a clique member posts a url the others say super / great

If it bothers you, there's a simple solution, you know...

> etc etc

Isn't there a small, developing nation you're supposed to be leading a
rebellion in? You really shouldn't keep your people waiting.

Grey
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spamblocked1

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Since: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 3499



(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:55 am
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Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster
From the safety of the GreyWyvern.com cafeteria
GreyWyvern <spam.DeleteThis@greywyvern.com> said:

> ...
> Isn't there a small, developing nation ...

California?

--
William Tasso

drwxr-xr-x
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PHPGB

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Since: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 23



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:55 am
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Ed Jay

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Since: Aug 05, 2005
Posts: 285



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:40 pm
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I've been lurking and participating on this NG for a few weeks. I'm active
on a few other groups. Technical and hobby-related. AWW and its cousin
alt.html are by far the "best" in terms of the people who participate in
them, the discussions and the absence of garbage.

Be pleased with what you have, and don't try to fix it if it ain't broken.
And, it isn't.

Ed Jay (remove M to respond)
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blackcat22

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Since: Jun 22, 2004
Posts: 568



(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:55 pm
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Charles Sweeney wrote:
: I like it just the way it is!

Seconded
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