Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website ..

(Secret Agent X) wrote:
> 1001 Webs <1001webs RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >If you're claiming that you specialize in making websites that are
> >accessible to the widest range of people possible, you shouldn't be
> >using Flash to start with.
> >
> >And if for some inexplicably reason you feel compelled to use Flash,
> >provide captioning and transcripts of audio, and descriptions of
> >video.
> >http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#video-information
> >
>
> Absolute, narrow-minded, blinkered, stupidity.
>
> You are assuming that accessibile means usable by a screen reader.
> There are many challenges to people, some can not see, some have
> trouble understanding spoken language, some havie difficulty using a
> keyboard.
>
> If, you want you web site to be accessible to the widest possible
> group of people, you should consult with those who have difficulties!
>
> X
This is true. Besides if the dick had actually looked at the page
properly he would have read the text description I placed on the page.
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

On Nov 11, 3:52 pm, Phil Payne <p... RemoveThis @isham-research.co.uk> wrote:
> > If you're claiming that you specialize in making websites that are
> > accessible to the widest range of people possible, you shouldn't be
> > using Flash to start with.
>
> Obvious that the skids are under Flash - the iPhone doesn't support
> it.

It will do though, in the next month or so.
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

On Nov 12, 1:07 pm, 1001 Webs <1001w....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 12, 1:22 pm, (Secret Agent X) wrote:
>
>
>
> > 1001 Webs <1001w....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >If you're claiming that you specialize in making websites that are
> > >accessible to the widest range of people possible, you shouldn't be
> > >using Flash to start with.
>
> > >And if for some inexplicably reason you feel compelled to use Flash,
> > >provide captioning and transcripts of audio, and descriptions of
> > >video.
> > >http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#video-information
>
> > Absolute, narrow-minded, blinkered, stupidity.
>
> > You are assuming that accessibile means usable by a screen reader.
> > There are many challenges to people, some can not see, some have
> > trouble understanding spoken language, some havie difficulty using a
> > keyboard.
>
> > If, you want you web site to be accessible to the widest possible
> > group of people, you should consult with those who have difficulties!
>
> I have.
> They said "NO Flash, please",

Probably because they are unaware that Flash can actually be a great
resource too, or you don't understand Flash well enough to lay out
legitimate reasons for Flash being perfect for some audiences?

> One of the limitations of Flash is that there is no way for the screen
> reader to pass on any information about the structure of a movie to
> the user.

Same goes for a web page. If you structure a web page disregarding how
screen readers will see it, you'll end up with something that spits
out rubbish when read aloud. Same for Flash. You can design a Flash
app to be read.

> You seem to have some trouble understanding basic concepts about
> "accessibility" means, you inconsiderate gooselikeblockheaded, dimwit,
> obtuse, witlessyokel-like moron.

And you seem to have zero understanding of Flash.
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

On Nov 12, 3:26 pm, 1001 Webs <1001w... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> > Probably because they are unaware that Flash can actually be a great
> > resource too,
>
> Not for people with dissability problems.

Qualify that?

Screen readers can read Flash content (if the content is designed to
be read). Flash is also a natural platform for offering highly visual
feedback and audio, meaning for certain disabilities it may be better
positioned than a "regular" web page.

> > Same goes for a web page. If you structure a web page disregarding how
> > screen readers will see it, you'll end up with something that spits
> > out rubbish when read aloud. Same for Flash. You can design a Flash
> > app to be read.
>
> Sure.
> And you can design a whole movie to be read also, so what are you
> trying to say?

That Flash should always be considered. It's just another tool to help
you create content for your audience. It's rather foolish to disregard
it until you've really investigated its capabilities (which is the
impression I get from you). I'm certainly not suggesting that it
should be used for all sites, but to completely disregard it could be
doing a real disfavour to your audience.
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

1001 Webs <1001webs DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>If you're claiming that you specialize in making websites that are
>accessible to the widest range of people possible, you shouldn't be
>using Flash to start with.
>
>And if for some inexplicably reason you feel compelled to use Flash,
>provide captioning and transcripts of audio, and descriptions of
>video.
>http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#video-information
>

Absolute, narrow-minded, blinkered, stupidity.

You are assuming that accessibile means usable by a screen reader.
There are many challenges to people, some can not see, some have
trouble understanding spoken language, some havie difficulty using a
keyboard.

If, you want you web site to be accessible to the widest possible
group of people, you should consult with those who have difficulties!

X
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

On Nov 12, 4:08 pm, 1001 Webs <1001w....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> Agreed, but may I remind you of the main topic of the thread:
> "Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website to be
> accessible to the widest range of people possible"
> The audience in this case is the widest range of people, including
> those with severe disability problems, i.e. totally blind or deaf
> people.

Okay fair enough - within the context of this post you're right.
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

On Nov 12, 1:22 pm, (Secret Agent X) wrote:
> 1001 Webs <1001w....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >If you're claiming that you specialize in making websites that are
> >accessible to the widest range of people possible, you shouldn't be
> >using Flash to start with.
>
> >And if for some inexplicably reason you feel compelled to use Flash,
> >provide captioning and transcripts of audio, and descriptions of
> >video.
> >http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#video-information
>
> Absolute, narrow-minded, blinkered, stupidity.
>
> You are assuming that accessibile means usable by a screen reader.
> There are many challenges to people, some can not see, some have
> trouble understanding spoken language, some havie difficulty using a
> keyboard.
>
> If, you want you web site to be accessible to the widest possible
> group of people, you should consult with those who have difficulties!

I have.
They said "NO Flash, please",
One of the limitations of Flash is that there is no way for the screen
reader to pass on any information about the structure of a movie to
the user.

You seem to have some trouble understanding basic concepts about
"accessibility" means, you inconsiderate gooselikeblockheaded, dimwit,
obtuse, witlessyokel-like moron.
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

On Nov 11, 1:32 pm, 1001 Webs <1001w... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> If you're claiming that you specialize in making websites that are
> accessible to the widest range of people possible, you shouldn't be
> using Flash to start with.

Maybe. Maybe not. Depends what you're using the Flash for and more
importantly how you code it.

> And if for some inexplicably reason you feel compelled to use Flash,
> provide captioning and transcripts of audio, and descriptions of
> video.http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#video-information

WCAG 1, which you are linking to here, was written in 1999. It's very
dated now and becoming increasingly insufficient as a guide to
accessibility on today's www.

WCAG 2 is stuck in development hell but has a much broader focus.

In any case accessibility is not black and white. There are a wide
range of types of web content and a wide range or accessibility
problems that users suffer from. It's not all about users who are
totally blind despite the impression that someone might think from
reading discussions online.

Adding transcripts to sit alongside video is a good first step (this
is something that we've done with over 200 videos on the site I
currently work on), making sure that the controls of video player
itself is accessible to, e.g. keyboard users, is another one. Adding
captions and audio descriptions is taking it to another level and is
probably not something that most people will be able to do at this
time.

> Some testimonials:
>
> Sarah Matthews, co-founder of online retailer You On Earth, which used
> Nomensa to build an accessible website from scratch in three months,
> recommends that anyone considering a web accessibility project work
> with experts and keep things as simple as possible.
> "Do not be too clever with your design - using fancy Flash animation
> can alienate all your potential customers, not just those with a
> disability," Matthews said.

Potentially true. Poor use of Flash can be very offputting regardless
of whether its accessible. There are some things (a shopping cart for
example) that I would never suggest doing in Flash. Other things
(video, interactive graphing) are very well suited to being done in
Flash.

> Likewise, Brighton-based Back 2 Balance Chiropractic Clinic recently
> built an accessible website on a shoestring budget. Using a freelance
> developer who used the WCAG as a resource, the small practice now has
> a non-Flash website which conforms to the A grade WAI requirements,
> and is accessible by patients of all ages and abilities.

So the first quote is from an "online retailer" and the second from a
"Chiropractic Clinic". I would not expect either site to use Flash
extensively anyway.

> Chris Rourke, managing director of web accessibility design firm User
> Vision, said Flash websites and PDF documents are two of the more
> challenging barriers to web accessibility, and described PDFs as the
> "Achilles heel of accessibility".

I agree with this but I think you may be reading too much into it.
Flash can be made accessible in many cases but a lot of people either
don't know or can't be bothered. PDF can also be made accessible but
it can be fiddly and often the people who know about PDF accessibility
are two or three steps removed from the people producing the original
document that was then converted to PDF.

Steve
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

On Nov 12, 2:20 pm, Chaddy2222 <spamlovermailbox-
sicur... DeleteThis @yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> (Secret Agent X) wrote:
> > 1001 Webs <1001w... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >If you're claiming that you specialize in making websites that are
> > >accessible to the widest range of people possible, you shouldn't be
> > >using Flash to start with.
>
> > >And if for some inexplicably reason you feel compelled to use Flash,
> > >provide captioning and transcripts of audio, and descriptions of
> > >video.
> > >http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#video-information
>
> > Absolute, narrow-minded, blinkered, stupidity.
>
> > You are assuming that accessibile means usable by a screen reader.
> > There are many challenges to people, some can not see, some have
> > trouble understanding spoken language, some havie difficulty using a
> > keyboard.
>
> > If, you want you web site to be accessible to the widest possible
> > group of people, you should consult with those who have difficulties!
>
> > X
>
> This is true. Besides if the dick had actually looked at the page
> properly he would have read the text description I placed on the page.

The dick recalls that you placed the text description on the page
after I advised you to do so.
You still have to thank me for that, loathsome CRIMINAL.

BTW, Shoddy, when are you going to present proof of your alleged
blindness?

We're all expectant, you know?
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

On Nov 12, 3:38 pm, SpaceGirl <nothespacegirls....RemoveThis@subhuman.net> wrote:
> On Nov 12, 1:07 pm, 1001 Webs <1001w....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 1:22 pm, (Secret Agent X) wrote:
>
> > > 1001 Webs <1001w....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >If you're claiming that you specialize in making websites that are
> > > >accessible to the widest range of people possible, you shouldn't be
> > > >using Flash to start with.
>
> > > >And if for some inexplicably reason you feel compelled to use Flash,
> > > >provide captioning and transcripts of audio, and descriptions of
> > > >video.
> > > >http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#video-information
>
> > > Absolute, narrow-minded, blinkered, stupidity.
>
> > > You are assuming that accessibile means usable by a screen reader.
> > > There are many challenges to people, some can not see, some have
> > > trouble understanding spoken language, some havie difficulty using a
> > > keyboard.
>
> > > If, you want you web site to be accessible to the widest possible
> > > group of people, you should consult with those who have difficulties!
>
> > I have.
> > They said "NO Flash, please",
>
> Probably because they are unaware that Flash can actually be a great
> resource too,
Not for people with dissability problems.

> or you don't understand Flash well enough to lay out
> legitimate reasons for Flash being perfect for some audiences?
Some audiences does not mean Accessible.

> > One of the limitations of Flash is that there is no way for the screen
> > reader to pass on any information about the structure of a movie to
> > the user.
>
> Same goes for a web page. If you structure a web page disregarding how
> screen readers will see it, you'll end up with something that spits
> out rubbish when read aloud. Same for Flash. You can design a Flash
> app to be read.
Sure.
And you can design a whole movie to be read also, so what are you
trying to say?

> > You seem to have some trouble understanding basic concepts about
> > "accessibility" means, you inconsiderate gooselikeblockheaded, dimwit,
> > obtuse, witlessyokel-like moron.
>
> And you seem to have zero understanding of Flash.
And you seem to have zero arguments.
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

On Nov 12, 4:58 pm, SpaceGirl <nothespacegirls... DeleteThis @subhuman.net> wrote:
> On Nov 12, 3:26 pm,1001Webs <1001w... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Probably because they are unaware that Flash can actually be a great
> > > resource too,
>
> > Not for people with dissability problems.
>
> Qualify that?
>
> Screen readers can read Flash content (if the content is designed to
> be read). Flash is also a natural platform for offering highly visual
> feedback and audio, meaning for certain disabilities it may be better
> positioned than a "regular" web page.
Ok, you're right there.
It depends on how you design the content, though.
But so do web pages.
> > > Same goes for a web page. If you structure a web page disregarding how
> > > screen readers will see it, you'll end up with something that spits
> > > out rubbish when read aloud. Same for Flash. You can design a Flash
> > > app to be read.
>
> > Sure.
> > And you can design a whole movie to be read also, so what are you
> > trying to say?
>
> That Flash should always be considered. It's just another tool to help
> you create content for your audience. It's rather foolish to disregard
> it until you've really investigated its capabilities (which is the
> impression I get from you). I'm certainly not suggesting that it
> should be used for all sites, but to completely disregard it could be
> doing a real disfavour to your audience.

Agreed, but may I remind you of the main topic of the thread:
"Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website to be
accessible to the widest range of people possible"
The audience in this case is the widest range of people, including
those with severe disability problems, i.e. totally blind or deaf
people.
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

Secret Agent X wrote:
> some havie difficulty using a keyboard.
>

Heh, almost like it was intentional...

--
"I get the impression that Jamie is a papusa or two short of a
combination plate." - Kent Wills

"A lot of Southeast Oregon appears to be low resolution
even when you are physically driving through it! - Uncle Bob
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website .. 

SpaceGirl wrote:
> On Nov 11, 3:52 pm, Phil Payne <p... RemoveThis @isham-research.co.uk> wrote:
>>> If you're claiming that you specialize in making websites that are
>>> accessible to the widest range of people possible, you shouldn't be
>>> using Flash to start with.
>> Obvious that the skids are under Flash - the iPhone doesn't support
>> it.
>
> It will do though, in the next month or so.
>

Yeah, they've been saying that since the day of release....

--
"I get the impression that Jamie is a papusa or two short of a
combination plate." - Kent Wills

"A lot of Southeast Oregon appears to be low resolution
even when you are physically driving through it! - Uncle Bob
 >> Stay informed about: Why you shouldn't be using Flash if you want your website ..